Dear all,

I am not sure if the sketch is readable enough to be commented upon, but here is some further info. We have a Federation villa that is in desperate need of having its existing 1980's extension demolished and replaced. In the new extension we would like - kitchen/living/dining/laundry/small butlers pantry/family bathroom/powder room/small study nook. We would like it to be reasonably spacious as we are in an area where it would not make sense to undercapitalise (also there is a chance we live here until the kids leave home...currently they are 8 and nearly 11...could be a long wait... but we are not sure about whether we will necessarily stay in this house) . Having said that we are the sort of people that are sensible with money and would want to spend wisely and carefully.

I posted before a couple of times (I am not sure how to link those to this post ? Can anyone help?) with the existing house plans and photos of the existing exterior. The previous responses were very helpful (thanks) and helped me come up with the current plan as I really wanted a powder room located such that it was accessible from the pool without wet children having to walk through the open plan area - so now you can see I have put the powder room off the laundry. which has a door that can be access from near the pool.

Some planning constraints etc I need to mention - on the Northern side, we cannot build closer than 1m from the boundary fence if we want to have clerestory windows (we do). On the Southern side is a street - we cannot go closer than 3m to this. There is an existing pool which we plan to renovate and square up at its 'Roman' end near the house - I am thinking we can build 1.5 m from the new end of the pool near the house. My other constraints /rationale are that I don't want to eat too far into the garden ( which is West of where it says outdoor entertaining) as the kids should be able to play footy etc in the garden), I do not want to change the 'old' part of the house as it works well for us (4 bed, study, front living room, ensuite) and has been renovated. I like to have the dining area adjacent the kitchen and the open plan living area a bit further away. I want an 'empty' island bench as I like a slightly minimalist look that is uncluttered( although with a bit of warm/texture added back - my ideabook 'highgraded' includes the look I am aiming for in the interior of the new extension) . There is an existing courtyard at the side of the house (marked) which I am thinking would be a nice outlook from what is the planned butlers pantry and family bathroom. I would like the fridge to be on the 'outskirts' of the kitchen for easy access, I would like the kettle and toaster to be near the fridge in a cupboard (but usable there).

I have oriented the sofa /TV as marked as it felt more spacious and less 'linear' with the dining and kitchen areas. I was thinking a lowline sofa would look ok in front of a big window looking out to the pool. On the Eastern end of the extension I would have a fireplace, some attractive wall hung storage with doors and some art. I have left 1400mm around the Island bench as I really like circulation space, eg when there are multiple cooks, but that might be overkill.

Please note that my wall thicknesses are a bit too thin on this plan, also I have not marked doors and windows properly (at all in some cases ) as I thought I would get a basic plan sorted first. I am planning to go to a building designer once I have had some review and feedback but I really felt like I needed to know what I wanted before I approached a building designer ( we have been thinking about this for eight and a half years now!!)

I am aware that a weakness of this layout is that it is spatially inefficient in terms of the amount of space around the dining table. I did think about trying to put the butler's pantry and study nook on the Northern side of the kitchen (behind the kitchen) then perhaps I could lose the storage bank /nook on the Eastern side of the kitchen/dining which might make the use of space more efficient. I haven't managed to make this workable though in terms of access points to the butlers pantry and nook from Northern wall of the kitchen because of the requirement for appliances along that wall.

Another thought I had to increase the spatial efficiency was as follows - perhaps if at least part of the family bathroom was wider in the East /West orientation, maybe it could be shorter in the North/South orientation, and then I could bring the whole Northern exterior wall of the extension towards the South somewhat and reduce the space either side of the dining table which seems over generous, without compromising other areas spatially.

Would love any ideas or feedback, and I do apologise for my lengthy post and terrible sketch, thanks.

If you plan on having the pool next to the house you will need to make sure any windows comply with pool regulations, one way to over come this is a modern Juliet style using pool glass pool fencing flush to windows. But then children are able to use any furniture to climb over into the pool!!, perhaps a walk way between the house and pool would work best and be safe. cheers,

Thanks Ok Louise and Siriuskey, I will post another sketch tomorrow to clarify how the old and new parts of the house might work together. Your plan is not far off what I was thinking OKlouise.

I was thinking we would have clerestory windows on the Northern side, maybe on others too (may depend on cost). I was planning on a door in the laundry for access from the pool (it was not very clear on my sketch, will make clearer). Will also address groceries etc too.

Siriuskey, I am thinking that the window and wall of the living area forms the majority of one side of the pool area (the other sides are formed by one side of the garage at the other end from the house, a hedge on the street side and a pool fence on the other. For this reason, I was assuming that the window in the living area part of the open plan will not be able to open for safety reasons.

Hi again,

I have just re-drafted some of my original sketch in black texta to clarify some of the points your raised OK Louise. As I said your drafting reflects mostly what I meant (thankyou).

In terms of groceries etc, I think we would still likely park at the front of the house and carry them down the hallway ( you have raised a good point though - we could add a side gate in the side street and then come in through the laundry, I will think about that).

I have made it clearer that I was thinking there would be a door off the laundry, and that would be the way in from the pool for wet children that had been swimming.

The garden /lawn is adjacent the outdoor entertaining area.

I have made it clearer that there is an existing courtyard, and I was hoping to have windows looking at it from the butlers pantry and possibly from family bathroom.

My main issue now (if you think it works ok flow wise/aesthetically and the layout of appliances etc is ok) is that there is just too much space around the dining table in the North-South orientation - it seems a bit wasteful in terms of the space ?

I will just upload the clarified sketches from my phone, also the existing plans (sorry about resolution) and a couple of photos so that you can visualise things better.

Thanks again

beautiful house you must be in SA, stone and Ice berg roses. Just wanted to say I did see that you had allowed for access via the laundry from the Pool for access to WC and possibly now for unloading from the garage.

Just something to think about, if you are not having any pool fencing between the house and the pool you would need no opening windows at floor level but could have higher opening windows for ventilation. A family member made the mistake and expense of large sash window along the wall of the family room and bedrooms facing onto the pool, they had to be key locked so that the pool was not accessed via these. The garage would have the same requirement. Bit concerned that you mentioned a hedge forming part of the boundary?, that would also need fencing.

Cheers

rereading all your post about demolishing and rebuilding i'm still not sure about position of compass points (if north is the kitchen then back yard is east and this will need to be confirmed to decide best window options to avoid overheating in hot weather) and, based on your concern about the wasted space around the dining table i've tested one of your earlier ideas with the laundry behind the kitchen and this also allows for the toilet access from pool, back garden or entertaining area (there's also room to squeeze in an indoor or outdoor hot shower) and this creates more space in the living area and avoids the need for the external steps up to the other laundry from the side access.. .the position of the internal steps between the old house and the extension is critical for comfort and in this plan i've kept the family bathroom and powder room "upstairs" and the rest of the extension at the ground floor level

Hi again, yes, the kitchen is definitely on the North and backyard is on the East - in fact the terrible overheating in summer because of the orientation is one of the main problems with the existing really tired extension that we want to replace.

I forgot to say that the laundry- hanging out area could be in the courtyard (although that will limit it's appeal as a visually appealing courtyard) or it could be on the Western side of the house, between the house and the side street.

I'm going to think more about this layout (thanks for doing that) and I like what you have suggested with the roofline and the overhand - would look good I think.

A question about raked ceilings (which I do love the look of , by the way) - could that make it harder to keep the open plan area cool in summer, particularly given the tricky East facing nature of the open plan area and the desire to have a reasonable amount of glass doors and windows facing East towards the garden and pool? Is a build with raked ceilings likely to be much more expensive?

Thanks again.

some lovely photos for you that might work with your beautiful house

I do like the way that raked ceilings make a room look more dramatic...thanks

And spacious and open ... love the SA Stone.

regarding the raked ceiling and overheating...anything gorgeous is usually more expensive but talk to your builder about well insulated scissor trusses with a standard 2400 ceilings level (only the triangle is higher and just right for ceiling fan or pendant light) and extended gables and automatic opening roof windows or a triangle of automatic opening windows on the north (and south?) with only a partition between kitchen and laundry if you decide to have the laundry to the north and, overheating will always be a problem with direct east or west facing glass, so i suggest external shutters or roller shade blinds across the east windows and sliding doors

je c, something for you to look at https://www.familyhomeexperts.com/single-post/2016/05/04/Raking-ceilings-to-decks

Cheers

That was a useful link thankyou Siriuskey.

OkLouise, I have soaked on your last sketch for a few days and whilst I like the idea of making the living area bigger, I wasn't sure about the powder room protruding into the living area but maybe I am worrying unnecessarily. (Have been trying to find a photo of a living area of a similar shape, and thinking about furniture placement in that context). I also wasn't sure about loo coming off the laundry /utility room ( I should explain I am English and a lot of us have a weird thing about not having the loo too near the kitchen! I know its silly and I have lived here for over 20 years now ...)

Another thought that came from looking at your last sketch - I could tuck the powder room into the entrance to the family bathroom ( I will post a rough sketch from my phone in a minute). In the sketch, the family bathroom might not be big enough for another loo, but a later thought I had was to stretch the family bathroom in a northerly direction a bit compared to this new sketch , then it should be possible. In this sketch, I envisaged the laundry/utility room having a lower roof that the main part of the extension so that high up windows could look "over" it in a Northerly direction.

In this sketch, I have also inserted a passageway from the hallway to the exterior on the Southern side. I know this is inefficient use of space, but it permitted me to have keep the living area in a nice "regular" rectangular shape whilst having a sliding door at the end of the hallway and manages the issue of kids from the pool walking through the living area ( sorry as I am writing this I am thinking about how "first world problem" that sounds....). This makes the living area 5 by 6 which is a good size. Also this plan keeps my wet areas more together which is good and uses the kitchen /dining area more efficiently, whilst still permitting 1.5 m between island and kitchen.

Welcome your comments ladies (and anyone else :) ), see sketch to follow. I haven't put any dimensions on but it is basically about the same footprint as what we were working with before.

Thanks again.

Is the study area needed as I can see this as being the perfect place for the family bath room along with powder room, that would make the new room a better shape?

that's relating to Oklouise last drawing, the new passage is a waste of space

Thanks Siriuskey - I think the study is better kept really as there is a reasonable chance that that my husband or I or both of us will work from home in the future, and so having a "proper" office will work better. I agree the passage way is a waste of space - I guess maybe I could ditch it and have a door to the outside off the living room (and just accept that the kids will traipse through the house after using the pool). In that case I could have a regular door off the hallway instead of a sliding door - will post a quick sketch.

A quick idea with photos to back up the idea of kitchen/pantry/laundry/outside

A contemporary shaker style kitchen · More Info

Tailored Interior · More Info

Tailored Spaces, Clever Layout · More Info

Contemporary Shaker Kitchen · More Info

you could just put the powder room in the new passage, not sure about your family situation, but bedrooms can always be either purpose. The WC room at the end of the laundry with access to outdoor is in a good space. If you did move the bathroom to the study you could have outdoor access to the pool along with the WC cheers

Just off to school pick up but I will mull on that thanks...

your house has a lovely roof that could have an attic room?

your latest sketch has the utility room (combined laundry and pantry?) next to the kitchen but doesn't include the toilet for the pool..is this correct? where do you want the backyard access bathroom to be?.... here's a very rough variation of your latest sketch with the separate powder room and family bathroom...please note that we have to leave space for the change in floor level between old and new and i suggest the servery window to the east in the kitchen helps to avoid the extra overheating from too many floor length windows to the east

Hi, thankyou both OK Louise and Siriuskey.

Sirius key, we have a box gutter roof so can't use the attic space. I don't think my other half will agree to our study becoming the bathroom.... Glad you liked that garden photo, I think it's stunning (although I will have some actual grass) .

OkLouise, yes, you have captured my last plan pretty much but with the following exceptions - the Northern wall can be on the boundary if needed as our existing extension (to be demolished) is located like this, and we will not have any windows on that wall on the boundary. The utility room would contain laundry, and the equivalent of a butlers pantry - ie kitchen appliances and pantry, possibly a (small) freezer which we find very handy. The access from the pool to the bathroom can no longer be direct in this scenario but the kids would have to come through the open plan area (sketch to follow). This is not ideal but it does allow me to have a bigger living area (each scenario has trade offs, I recognize that. ). In this sketch I have also elongated the family bathroom to provide ample space for a loo in it as well as the adjacent powder room.

So to summarise - under this scenario vs the earlier scenario, the trade offs I need to weigh up are larger living area (and combined laundry and butlers pantry and no direct access to loo from pool) vs direct access from pool to a loo (and a smaller living area and separate laundry and butlers pantry). Any guidance here?

Yes, I hear what you are saying about limiting full length windows on the east facing side ( I could also do this in the living area).

Thanks both of you for your time and skills :)

Hi again, not sure what you mean by having a Box Gutter which wouldn't allow an attic room, I understand box gutters, we had one when we added a double garage to our Federation house in Sydney. By Attic room I meant in the original roof of the house, most wasted space.

before i draw your latest sketch here's another version "already prepared earlier" that might be worth considering (btw i strongly advise that you consult local council before we assume that re-building on the boundary is legal as building on the boundary creates major problem for any roof and proper drainage)... you will notice i've added extra separation between the kitchen and toilets and there's space for a tall narrow window into the courtyard from the bathroom (although any window in the pantry would be best as a narrow splash back with external shutters for a view to the courtyard without hot western sun) and your kitchen servery window photo is ideal

M House · More Info

Hi Siriuskey,

I have just tried taking a photo of the top of my house from Google earth to show you what the roof looks like from above but have failed miserably. It is the box gutter set up that has a large depression in the centre of the roof, and so there isn't much space under the roof for an attic room, just the bits around the outside edges of the house. This wouldn't leave space for a large room that was tall enough to stand up in. I agree that attic rooms can be a great addition at relatively low cost, we built one in our last house and it was very handy.

Thanks again.

Hi OkLouise, I like the way that you have handled the roof line. I think you and Siriouskey have given me enough pointers that I can share the highgraded options with a building designer (and some friends who are also building and may be a good help) and then make sure that my measurements, planning assumptions etc. stand up to scrutiny.

Thanks again, this is an excellent forum.

Janet

you sound as though you're at the same level on computer skills, never mind, shame about the roof space we managed 3 rooms in our Federation house. With the current early 80's we have plans to put a mezzanine level in the living area with it's high sloped ceiling, this was planned to be the office so we could keep an eye on things and watch the boats go by look forward to seeing what you settle on cheers.

(Ps. did you watch the Today show this morning, some young MEB reporter said that she had spent some time in Adelaide and that SA's used Cascel instead of Castle & Dunce instead of Dance, and she found it hard to listen to. Where has she been it was the Victorians who used that not us)

That sounds like it will work really well (your mezzanine). No, I didn't see the Today Show, I think each state has it's own accent to varying degrees.

I will keep you posted on progress!

Just one last thought re the toilet in the laundry and not liking that,
what about making The WC access direct from the outside, you could have a
lovely out door shower nearby. We had this setup in our old Fed house
which had verandahs on every corner of the house one of which had the
laundry opening onto it and an outdoor Loo which worked beautifully with
the pool nearby, rough idea for you to consider. cheers

That's not a bad idea - I will add it to the options for discussion with the bd. -thanks :)

Perhaps this for Adelaide winters