andrewjason1

Where should we put the toilet in this small bathroom?

andrewjason1
July 15, 2019
last modified: November 4, 2019

Hi,

My kids' bathroom is about 2,560mm long x 1,830mm wide, so small.

It used to look like this:









Our option 1 to renovate is to keep this basic setup., (note floor to ceiling tiles will be going in w no cornice but square set ceiling)

So a 1200 vanity unit (as the old one above is), but it will be floating (300 above floor) then bench at 900 then 400mm splashback then shaving cabinets. Bath shower against one wall and then where you can see that blue clothes basket , it represents a clear space which along with the floating vanity makes the room appear bigger.

Here is the partly renovated room right now partly started. the only difference is we want to squeeze in a toilet as pictured (you will note the windown has been cut down as well, it will meet the bath height)



In the above image we think there is enough room to dry off as you step out as A) the old bathroom was that way and B) the toilet above at 660mm protrusion (see caroma urbane drawing) would not protrude further than a fixed glass panel.

Also in the space above btw vanity and bathroom, the wife wishes to place towel rails so its easy to grap as you step out. I think we should leave that wall space clear to show off the floor to ceiling tiles but either way this option 1 leaves space on that wall for towel rails.

We think we can fit in a toilet roll holder below as well, 200mm gap either side of toilet



The purple below is the door



Toilet represented by the green image above is a Caroma Urbane Clean Flush as pictured below.



In the 750mm gap btw the bath and architrave, i would space it out as follows

200 gap > 350mm toilet > 200 gap [Bath]

My other toilet has a space of only 220 on one side and its fine. Alternatively i move it another 50-100mm towards the door because when the door is shut there is plenty of space on one side, and i would further distnace the toilet from the glass panel of the bath (for see image 1,2,3 above for images of the old bath and glass panel)

by plenty of space with the door shut i repeat image 6 above

OPTION 2

Toilet between vanity and bath, vanity reduces from 1200 long to 1000.

My wife thinks this option is better after originally preferring the above

note the first image should say option 2 not 1

The purple below is the door







part of the reason , is the yellow line and purple lines below

The purple below is the door



there is concern (not mine) that w option 1 there will not be enough floor space to dry off. So by moving the toilet to the same wall as the vanity and window we leave an area for this task. (to the left of the yellow arrow above)

My concern is

  • that window side wall is now crowded, in option 1 there is the feeling of space as there is a gap of open floor to ceiling space btw vanity and bath which along w a floating vanity provides a sense of space to a small room.
  • The toilet is sort of hidden off to the side of the door .

What do people think here? option 1 vs 2 or not even try to cram a toilet in?

house is currently a single storey 4 x 2, with the separate toilet connected to the laundry, this additional toilet would make it a 4x3.

Comments (65)

  • andrewjason1

    Hi Sirius my floorplan is linked further up.

    Margot, thanks for your drawings, your plan A does that involve a fully enclosed glass frame all along the bath?

    Plan B is a really good idea, would have given us our separate bath and toilet but alas the kitchen dining and living area has already been renovated.

    This image below (excuse the mess) of a 'drinks cabinet' is just the other side of the existing bathroom, its where your plan says to pinch about 1100 of of the dining room.




    we think its a great idea and there is plenty of room to steal, Plan B I am talking about but we should have thought about it more when commissioning the work for the living, dining and kitchen area.

    We did that area in 2015 thinking we would slowly arrive at the rest, we have arrived but are now locked in by prior decisions. Though part of me feels like sacrificing that section or just bringing it forward and making that hallway door hinge the other side.

    Thats a lesson there to take into account a holistic plan for the whole house even if completed in sections.

    So I think your Plan A will suffice, obviously then you preferred my Option 2 above.

  • andrewjason1

    oklouise thanks for the drawing, we hadnt thought about the toilet in that spot, will consider it. However your position of the glass on the bath shower means the shower head is up next to the window, the window people advised against this so the shower head is on the opposite wall and hence a glass panel fixed or fixed and hinging must go there. Cheers

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  • andrewjason1
    1. Kitchen and Home Sketch Designs, we were thinking more about your Plan B above (knocking out what we have). One measurement I differ to you though is the width of that extended area that you 'pinch' from the living and dining room.

    see below



    You can see some faint green tape marked out on the wooden floor to represent you 1100 extension. But the width comes to 1270 (off the architrave) to the wall projection.

    On the inside of the bathroom though there is 1`600mm from wall to the edge of the door jam as below



    The difference must be below



    so I assume this means to achieve your design i would also have to knock out part of the wall that runs above next to the dotted green line and move it over 150mm or so?

  • andrewjason1

    To add some context to the below plans




    in regards to the Dining, kitchen and Living room, here are some images. These zones are considered 'finished' technically








    So if we knocked out the drinks cabinet to expand into the zone of the green tape , you Plan B i am not sure if we would just move that drinks cabinet setup forward , lose it altogether and put something else on the new walls. (if we even did it)

  • siriuskey

    Just wondering why you didn't swap the laundry and WC to use for the family bathroom? The laundry would have worked next to the kitchen. This is what happens when planning renovations in bits.

    andrewjason1 thanked siriuskey
  • PRO
    Kitchen and Home Sketch Designs

    Hi AndrewJason, Your home looks beautiful.

    Plan ALL of the home even if doing works in sections.

    Drinks cab which is a fab idea, could move fwd.

    Is that a hinge door to hall? make it a CSD.....much less nuisance.

    If the bathroom space is too narrow would the vanity turn to back the drinks cab?

    Tho if you have 1600 width from bathroom door to kit wall that is great for 500 deep vanity and walk space.

    Avoid the toilet (throne) at end of hallway :( uck

    Avoid window in shower a big no no

    Personally I dis like the corner vanities especially when mirror follows walls and one knows not which way to look! difficult storage, no real advantage in the room.

    Having the POWDER room off the laundry makes a HUGE difference to functionality of home: one uses that basin for teeth or make up while other bathroom is in use. better great idea should be more of them! (as a visitor to the loo nothing worse than sneaking about to find a basin)

    My Plan A: full long glass with sliding or hinge door to bath would be better than trying to get kids to keep floor dry!

    My Plan A: The cavity slider makes a huge difference to floor area and with careful wall framing (or a unnoticeably thicker wall) you can have towel rails there too.

    My Plan B will only work when you move the window: pest but worth the effort me thinks!

    Wish my house was as uniform, tidy and calm as yours looks! How many kiddies?


    Cheers Margot

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  • PRO
    Kitchen and Home Sketch Designs

    Then of course you could go out under eave like the robes etc.....450MM = 2250 ish in width. What advantage might that be to layout? HHHHMMMM.....watch this space.....beware I'm thinking!!!!……..

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  • siriuskey

    Just a very quick idea for you to consider with swapping the laundry with bathroom. And adding a small sink to the bar. cheers


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  • andrewjason1

    Hi

    one issue we have with this house is that the patio/pool area is separated from the thin strip of backyard, like separate zones. Your line of sight in the patio area doesnt take in the rear backyard, not just physically due to the pool fence but visually the two bedrooms are in the way.






    ill try to draw in the zones below





    Compare this to some other properties where their backyard sitting area flows on to both the grass AND pool, with line of sight to all.





    both the above examples would have been more what we preferred. To achieve we would have had to cut away, demolish part of the building in yellow below.




    Which would have been find however it would be 2x 2 house not 4x2 and we would have had to go up and have a second storey.


    Long story short, Sirius one reason we didnt swap the Laundry for Bathroom as per your drawing is our homemade plans had the door to that little strip of backyard deleted and only a door in the laundry (ie. the laundry swapped to the kids bathroom as per your drawing). This would have meant that little stip of land at the back of the house was even more zoned off and no part of the house directly opened on to it!


    The part of your drawing Sirius with the swapped Bath to Laundry zone, has a long deep toilet, the wife doesnt like that narrow long stretch, we did think of it, also from the hallway there is a small linen closet there.

  • andrewjason1

    Margot thanks again, the house isnt normally that tidy, i spent 20min cleaning up junk prior to taking the photos.

  • siriuskey

    The two spaces can be arranged into one with access to the rear garden, but I can only imagine that it's not really a space that you would like small children to use as a play space as you are unable to view that space from the kitchen family.

    Your patio area looks quite large and might convert to a new play space?, using the rear garden as a veggie patch etc

    The linen cupboard that your wife doesn't want to lose is in the laundry.

    The two bedrooms could have been moved to the living room space so that the rear was opened to the kitchen family, a bit late now and very expensive.

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  • PRO
    Kitchen and Home Sketch Designs

    Ok so I've had a play under your eave!

    I would prefer to look at vanity or bath not shower and bath with window over is nice to outlook. Vanity too small in plan E, Double in Plan D might work :) With careful double studs you can probably still use a cavity slider too. Cheers Margot

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  • andrewjason1

    Kitchen and Home Sketch Designs

    Thanks again for these ideas, we have alot to think about, I think if we did go out under the eaves which would obviously require new footings, then we may as well go with D or E over C. Though I say that just sitting here and not looking outside yet. When you say double studs, we are a double brick house with single brick internal walls but have put in a CSD in the laundry as per midway construction photos further up

    What do you think is easier for a builder Plan B or Plan D? Plan D , the eaves extension doesnt involve cutting into the existing wooden Floor and moving the drinks cabinet along.


    Another edit, i see with plan E or D the bath will have to reduce from the 1700 to no more than 1660, which is probably fine given the tradeoffs.

  • PRO
    Kitchen and Home Sketch Designs

    I think it might be better and easier to do Plan D under the eave. It is the long sticking out loo again: if you can find one that is less than 500 out from the wall it will look neater and better. And length of bath: depends who will use it, if after kiddies are grown anyone uses it!, you do need a bath for a family home but they often do not get used after that. Shame to mess up the kitchen drinks cab already finished. It looks so lovely. Altho there is not a lot of storage so maybe playing with that corner would provide some. Cavity sliders are fabulous: take no space, there when you need 'em and gone! Worth the faffing about: in your case of knocking the bricks out and popping in the CSD unit with some carefully placed studs if towel rails required too. Good luck and I'd love to know what you do and how it looks when finished. Cheers, Margot

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  • andrewjason1

    Thanks again Margot, the wife is thinking about doing both Plan B and D, so thats knocking out both ends, i think though it will reduce to one or the other but we are still contemplating the designs prior to getting costings.


    When you say , there is not alot of storage, do you mean in the big broad kitchen-dining/living room zone in general? one query with Plan B (pushing out the drinks cabinet) is what we do in the kitchen-dining/living room zone in general with that section pushed out. Do we even repeat the drinks cabinet again, just 1.1m out, or something else, or just a bare wall.

  • siriuskey

    Another idea is to swap the laundry with the 3rd bedroom to allow more space for the kids bathroom and the laundry still having access to the rear garden and clothes line. Your other completed renovations can stay as they are.




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  • andrewjason1

    thanks for these drawings Sirius and the time all of the responders here are providing, however unfortunately our current laundry I think is a done deal now, see the link to the original thread somewhere higher up. (ill get some fresh images in relation to it)We have already cut bricks out, put some in, put in a big sliding door .


    Can i ask though, if we had made the original laundry the 3rd bedroom, wouldnt it exacerbate my concern about dividing off the rear of the house into a hard to access zone? (see further up my images and comments on that matter), already the backyard and pool/patio are two separate zones but both at least have public access to each zone. I think your drawing above even if that new 3rd bedroom had a access sliding door to the backyard, it becomes sort of only available to that bedrooms occupant, not members of the whole house. ie. i wouldnt contine to walk over the carpeted bedroom of my kid to access the backyard.

  • siriuskey

    Access to the rear garden is already compromised, swapping the 2 rooms just means moving the outdoor access sideways a couple of meters. The cut out in the planned laundry could become a large window over looking the garden. There's always a problem when renovations are done with a piecemeal approach instead of getting a complete overall plan done and signed off on.

    Perhaps you could look at swapping Bedroom 1 with the laundry bathroom which brings it next to the pool, or have you already done that bedroom too?

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  • siriuskey

    This with the laundry and Powder room next to the pool, giving a VIEW with tall windows, even juliet style windows with light back into the house, It also gives easy access to the fenced pool and rear garden via the laundry dropping any wet togs on the way. Plus access from the outdoor alfresco to the WC


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  • siriuskey

    As per upstairs




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  • joadymcmanus

    Did anyone mention a sliding door? Am thinking of a barn style slider that is all the rage at the moment or one that slides in the door cavity?

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  • siriuskey

    Hi Andrew, I just noticed that I overlooked the robe in the powder room, so this powder room with a lovely long narrow vanity, great for doing teeth and makeup.


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  • andrewjason1


    Kitchen and Home Sketch Designs I just measured the eaves they are 600mm, I assume I have found another 150mm? , did you assume 450?


    sirius I will come back on your post

  • andrewjason1


    Kitchen and Home Sketch Designs


    see image and post above as well

  • andrewjason1

    siriuskey




    as above, the laundry which is in the position of the original laundry is partly complete including new sliding door so its only that kids bathroom we have room to expand really

  • PRO
    Kitchen and Home Sketch Designs

    Hi AndrewJason1, I did make the assumption of 450 mm eave so at 600 minus brick veneer ? = 460mm win!! with the additional smidge, I might still consider the above plans but they will give you a little more comfortable space.

    Thinking about the ideas of b4 with moving the drinks cabinet. If you swung it around and backed it onto a linen cupboard into the hall (opposite the little one with the pwd room) you may win some space for the bathroom too depending where the dining/hall door is.

    I was trying to add privacy by have the bathroom door NOT at the end of the hall, and most definitely not looking at the loo. To that end how much extra would you gain in the bathroom? Is it enough to include a double vanity? OR a separate loo room? Or am I getting carried away now!!

    I can't see any way of altering the land lay out problem. It is a pest when you can't watch kiddies playing outside especially from the kitchen where we do tend to spend a lot of time. NO way can you have littlies in the pool without being right there. No adult = no pool. That would be the go where every the pool was: visual from kitchen or not. Fill in the pool and make cricket pitch instead?? :) Have fun. Margot

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  • andrewjason1

    Kitchen and Home Sketch Designs

    Hi its a double brick external wall with cavity as below (and all internal walls are single brick)





    span above is 250mm

    so if we knock out this internal wall and rebuild 600mm out, its a fresh double brick wall

    Your comment

    " you may win some space for the bathroom too depending where the dining/hall door is. "







    is this basically what you mean by switching the drinks cabinet around, make it face the kitchen area with a linen closet behind it, sharing the same length, w the linen clost opening into the hallway?



  • me me

    Back to your question of why I chose option two. There is more circulation space. Not sure of the ages of your kids, but if you have little kids who may need assistance, there is more space for adult plus child in there.

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  • andrewjason1

    Hi Margo, Kitchen and Home Sketch Designs , others


    we are still considering this whilst progressing other works.


    As a catchup




    The left most image is the current bathroom size and layout. The middle image shows the idea Margo had to steal some space from the dining area to expand the bathroom, this is the yellow in the middle image above. Then the rightmost image above shows that expanded space.


    The bathroom expansion is to add a separation bath and shower and toilet whilst before there was just shower/bath and no toilet.(see existing plan , leftmost image above)


    Further catchup below is the dining kitchen area we propose to steal space from and the drinks cabinet that will have to be moved forward or deleted from that area.





    Our conundrum in this expansion zone is


    Move the Drinks Cabinet Forward

    and in behind that is some more bathroom space.




    The cutout of the new door in in green tape up on the wall

    The 1220 length is the maximum we would move that nib wall forward. (nib wall is 130mm single leaf brick rendered both sides)




    Here it is in plan. Our concern is that green arrow dimension of 840mm, is this too small a distance from the wall/closed door to the edge of the vanity?


    I think its just acceptable myself, thats what we have in our master bathroom between vanity and shower glass. But what do you interior designers think?


    I could decrease the vanity to say 350 with semi recessed basins? though then the overhead shaving cabinets might dominate it too much.


    Alternative Option - Delete the Drinks Cabinet from this area





    This then places the vanity unit against the other wall, not facing the entrance. It now means when you stand at the doorway you have about 1310mm until the wall.


    I am less keen on this option only because i wanted to retain the drinks cabinet somewhere.

    If you prefer this option, could you also speculate where else in the large dining/kitchen area we could relocate it?








  • siriuskey

    either way I would swap the bath with shower, and if you reduced the depth of the vanity, the shaving cabinet can be recessed into the wall,

  • andrewjason1

    what minimum size vanity do you think we can go? bear in mind its a proper bathroom not a powder room.


    Also do you have an opinion on whether a 840mm gap from wall(door) to vanity edge is too small? thankyou

  • PRO
    Kitchen and Home Sketch Designs

    Hi Andrew Jason,

    I believe that your amount of thought and quandary going into this is well worth it.

    It is THIS design process that is so often overlooked or rushed thru so quickly that a bad result is inevitable.

    I do not think the 840 is too small but a cavity slider would be great there because there is no door in the way

    A 350 deep vanity with semi recessed basins would make it look larger and the small storage options they offer is more appropriate for the small things needed in a bathroom.


    So, now, Let me see if we can get this right......I will redraw but after I've fed us...….watch this space...…! :)

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  • kiwimills

    Wow, great ideas!
    Ild just push the drinks cabinet forward and get a unit to tie it in with what's on that right wall already ( more expense to marry it back up, but neater )
    We just put in a curved shower, as we just had a bath with shower over and 1200 vanity.
    Now we have curved shower and 750 vanity and original bath.
    But our house was a Reno job.
    We put a vanity in sep loo, so a powder room now.
    Ours isn't as lovely as yours!!

  • PRO
    Kitchen and Home Sketch Designs

    Sorry I wasn't feeding the army, just a few bods!

    See what you think of this one! I personally like G because you cannot see directly into the room, the loo is behind a nib wall, the full length window is a beautiful feature and I think 2.4 of vanity is generous if you didn't want to put a 600 wide store cupboard in as well and make it 1800 which is still LOOOONNNGGG for a vanity! Extra cupboard space in hall way too must be handy.

    I do hope I have been of assistance for you.

    Cheers

    Margot

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  • andrewjason1

    Hi Margot thankyou for this, just seeing this now, will print out and further consider. thanks

  • Graphic Glass

    Option 2 would be the good idea.

  • andrewjason1

    Hi all and Kitchen and Home Sketch Designs, Sirius, Kiwimills


    This is where we have got to now




    Below is the proposed plans with more measurements





    Two Main Decisions:

    NO to Pushing out to the eaves:


    giving another 600mm doesn't really improve on the above plan other then another 600mm, to have a longer towel rail or space btw toilet and shower. Not building it saves about 9000 on one builders quote and much more with another.


    NO to saving the drinks cabinet completely ( more on that further on)


    First below is a image of the dining space zoomed out, drinks cabinet with lights turned on in the corner.





    We have decided pushing into the dining open plan area looks bulky enough without also pushing the drinks cabinet forward. So note the blue tape below that indicates the extent of the build at 3240 internal space of kids bathroom.




    What follows below is my attempt at mocking up the new wall AND comparing the hallway door as a SWINGING door vs a Cavity Slider Door that when open , disappears.



    It seems to me that converting the hallway door to a cavity slider will help mitigate the intrusion of the new wall by the door not almost touching it , instead there is a section of bare wall.


    ??


    thanks again Margot for your Plan F and G, they maximize the space but we felt cosmetically it was too much.


    Drinks Cabinet Partial Saving -

    The stone benchtop can be used in the kids bathroom vanity unit. But the cabinetry below it will be lost, the cabinets above though at 1200w x 795 tall, excluding fillers we intend to relocate into the kitchen by removing that wooden shelf with plants on it. See below





    what do people think of that?

    that wooden shelf we may cut into 3 and stagger the shelf onto the new wall to break it up.





  • andrewjason1

    Leaving the Dining area and going into the bathroom area and plan I have this question


    Minimum length required for a walk in shower space and seat/ledge


    I thought it worthy of its own discussion topic instead of being lost here.


    https://www.houzz.com.au/discussions/5788056/minimum-length-required-for-a-walk-in-shower-space-and-seat-ledge





  • andrewjason1

    I also posted this in a separate thread re niches, nib walls, etc around a bath


    https://www.houzz.com.au/discussions/5788065/bath-and-whether-to-put-a-niche-nib-wall-lip-around-it#n=0?


  • siriuskey

    Another suggestion maintaining the current door and window, I'll leave you to do the sums. it includes a wider 1m shower, 900 vanity and 1500 bath


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  • siriuskey

    Another thought is that I think that the doorway from the passage should be moved across towards the old bar, this would give a better space for your dining room as the table is currently pushed up against the wall.

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  • andrewjason1

    Hi Siriuskey on the moving the doorway comment across towards the old bar, considering the images with my amatuer imposed markup of the new wall, your suggestion would place that door closer again then my currently calculated 925mm




    How close would you bring it?

    If i go CSDs in the bathroom entrance (so not your alternative design 2 posts up of leaving the bathroom door where it is) and the hallway the frame of each unit will touch each other and i wont be able to bring that door to the right anyway.


    One other benefit of the door where it is, is that hallway door behind it lines up perfectly and when that hallway door is open you see straight through to the backyard.

  • siriuskey

    I would remove the door across as far as it can go and have it open back against the new wall, the door as it is breaks up the space regardless of seeing through the laundry into the back yard. This is why it is best to have a total floorplan before any renos take place.

    In hindsite changing the position of the WC in the now laundry you would have still looked out to the back yard with the doorway moved across

    A lovely framed print on the passage wall opposite the door would work really well

  • kiwimills

    Cavity slider ? You mean just a sliding door, or you ripping the wall out to build a cavity slider?

    After doing a Reno and how GiB crumbles ( who knew!?) I would try and keep as many things as you can where they are and try and just build new!

    GiB...argghh, and dust!

    Can you do a barn door?

    Would " touch" bathroom wall when open but would be a nice feature door

  • andrewjason1

    kiwimills , yes we are talking about ripping out the wall and installing a cavity slider, the barn door will not work. Sorry whats GIB?



  • kiwimills

    Drywall? Stuff that goes over the frame. I call it GiB! Lol. Its an off white..big sheets.

    Screw/ nail it on the frame


    OK cool...so you are rebuilding the wall, got it.



  • andrewjason1



    hi yes the sheeting is to go over the frame, in my house I will want to look at Soundcheck or some such brand as the house is otherwise brick

  • PRO
    Kitchen and Home Sketch Designs

    Hello AndrewJason,


    I am very please to have been able to help you with your bathroom plans. Yes I agree with others that it is best to have the whole house plan before starting any renos and that has proved right here too. However, you may not have anticipated all this with a simple question about another loo in the bathroom!


    I feel it is a shame to loose the drinks cabinet and still like my Plan G. If you came back from under eave, put shower, loo and vanity along wall backing kitchen, vanity at 1 meter would work to have it all!! Bath, long window, shower, loo, one meter vanity, door into bathroom with no view down hall, linen/store AND drinks cabinet too. win win win!!!


    Go well and lets see the finished pictures please!!!

    I would love it if I may use some of this process on my profile here. I have no idea how to do that except to first ask you permission!


    Cheers Margot


    andrewjason1 thanked Kitchen and Home Sketch Designs
  • andrewjason1

    Hi thanks Margot, yes whatever you need from this thread, most of it is the advice received and efforts expended from yourself, Siriuskey and others which is what makes such a forum great.

    You can call it "Average Joe attempts reno and design, what not to do" if you like :>


    Even better the 10,000x more lurkers who never sign up and post but will come across such threads even 10 years from now and go away better informed.


    Your Plan G certainly fits the maximum amount in, we were just worried about the overall build being too bulky. I take it you agree we should put Cavity Sliders in x 2 at least?

  • PRO
    Kitchen and Home Sketch Designs

    Hi AndrewJason,


    I love cavity sliders. they are there when you want them but not visible when you need the space open. Having said that they cost more, take a bit of wreckage to set up and in you WA case you will be wrecking brick walls to put them in which might be a stretch of mess too far. BUT you will need to weigh up if they are worth it in the end. I do not think the build will be too bulky in the kitchen/dining because it will be superbly practical on both sides and it maybe just a matter of what you are used to.

    Not sure about "Average Joe...…" we are all good at somethings, mine is plans, function, practicality, solar. Yours might be brain surgery, empathy for unwell folks, kinda or you make the best seafood lasagne in the world... we are all needed to make for a great world: and it really is that!!!

    Good luck with your splendid home: I think it is beautiful.

    And PS if you do make the best seafood anything I better have your address....!!!!!!! MK