You don't have a very efficient plan with lots of circulation space and not enough room in your bathrooms.

I would reduce Bedroom four by about 300mm and add the space to the ensuite and WIR to give you enough room for the double vanity. Have a look at some of the double vanities that Ikea sell (which are the smallest on the market) to see if they provide enough width for your use. I would personally prefer to have a single vanity and more benchspace. Replace the bath with a walk-in-shower but be careful of spray distances from the shower rose.

The "ensuite" adjacent to bedroom 3 is too small to include a bath, however there is so much circulation space, and bedroom 3 is quite big, so again I would be sacrificing some of the room from these spaces to give you the room you need in the bathroom.

The layout of the ensuite next to bedroom 5 doesn't really work - it is poorly planned and too tight.

Nothing worse than matching well-sized bedrooms (which you have), with pokey, little bathrooms. There are lots of other opportunities to improve your plan and no doubt other Houzzers wll be making lots of suggestions.

Best of luck,

Dr Retro

of Dr Retro House Calls

classic case of designing the wrong way around. rather than design from the inside out, the building form has been locked in and then a poorly resolved internal layout squeezed within the external walls. Typical drafting approach as opposed to architectural

if you want a bath in the ensuite best to make it feel luxurious. I'd also argue potentially better to consider 2x well appointed and generous bathrooms than 3x under-scaled squeezed spaces. is there any reason/necessity for 3 ensuites? Why have 2x ensuites and then the from bedroom 3 accessed from outside the room?? Yes 2x basins easily achievable but need to rejig/re-look at the whole upper floor level.. As retro indicated there's so much under-utilised circulation space that with better planning could be reclaimed for use in better appointed bathrooms so it doesn't feel squeezed and awkward. As currently drawn You'd be lucky to be able to physically stand/fit between the vanity and the shower screen in the ensuite to bedroom 5. Bathrooms rarely work well in square like room proportions such as here. Rather, they are better achieve with more rectangular spaces that are centrally accessed or at one end with the various amenities arranged/planned/accessed to one side, but again you design them by starting with what you're trying to fit in and then resolve the building/walls/windows around the planning, which goes back to the old famous quote of "forms follows function". What's happened here is forcing a planning layout within a series of boxes and trying to wrestle it to work. I'd be also thinking about how the landing could be used functionally - a library? study? retreat? access to storage cupboards??

You have enough space available to rework this plan and keep it traditional.

Thanks for the input!

Dr Retro: I'll check out the ikea doubles. We were thinking of making the ensuite next to room 3 bigger to accomodate a bath so will look into it again

- the reason the circulation area is so big is because we wanted to avoid the sensation of being too closed in when you walk up the stairs and being confronted by walls all around and close to you - is that a valid concern?

Paul Di Stefano: the building form is the way it is due to local council restrictions as the property is in a heritage conservation area and was designed by an experienced architect that does a lot of property in the area.

The reason for 3 ensuites is because the wife wanted it and apparently thats something that buyers in the local market look for.

Room 5 is for a girl and has an ensuite.

Room 3 is a for a boy and the bath was outside the bedroom so that it could also be a communal bath for guests to use if needed without having to go into his bedroom

- do you think it would be better to have it as a proper ensuite accessed via the bedroom?

I'll look into reducing the circulation space but am concerned about corridors feeling too much like being inside a cupboard

sorry to be critical, but an experienced architect I reckon should be able to resolve this properly. If you have an architect on board and your posting plans on a forum like this to try and resolve some clear planning issues/flaws then there's an issue with the architect's professional capacity. Totally understand council restrictions, as similarly we're experienced in negotiating them - but I'd never use it as an excuse for compromised planning, rather you have to work with it, but there's always a way of creatively negotiating the policy...OK so it's heritage/traditional and the form best to be symmetrical to be sympathetic to character -but that's not the major problem - rather it's the dated bathrooms planning out of scale with the bedrooms as retro said. The fact you have to walk through a robe to access the (rather small) master ensuite with the space you have to play with is underwhelming. In regards to the landing, what we try and achieve is some form of transitional space that is not a corridor but functional if widened as something that is of value, even as a small sitting are or something that can have some furniture in it so it feels like it has a purpose - even if it's display, gallery or bookshelving. Totally agree not to feel closed in, but the planning (generally) here feels more like a holiday accommodation/apartment set-up or small unit development, rather than a character residence of certain generosity & proportion. Would be interesting to see the lower level plans. What stage are you at - is this only at sketch stage, planning? or are you documenting for tender/construction?? If it's at sketch stage then there should be furniture in the bedrooms so you can see how the spaces are to be used and you'll see how appropriately or not they are for scaled for the intended uses. I'd argue a guest bathroom functionally needs to be on the same floor level as a guest bedroom, which in this case it's not.

Best of luck PD

www.pauldistefanodesign.com

Nice job, oklousie, a much better proportion of space with a more balanced feel than the original "experienced architect" of the original poster. I agree that nothing feels tighter and meaner than winder steps at the top or bottom of a stairwell. They should really only be used in your narrow terrace house, not in a substantial family home with kids.

Like any profession there are different areas of expertise, and an "experienced architect" isn't always experienced in heritage residential design. I probably wouldn't get a brain surgeon to remove my tonsils.

Dr Retro

of Dr Retro House Calls

HI Simon,

So Buyers in your area are looking for ensuites off each room?? and in a heritage overlaid home? sheesh, that's quite a demand. Guessing this house must be in quite a well to do area.

Before you move any walls, you should probably should decide whether you and your wife actually want a bath in your ensuite. Usually baths are in family bathrooms unless you Are you after a spa-like feel? Make sure your ensuite is the sanctuary you seek first!

A few questions...Where are bedroom 1 and 2 and what is their bathroom situation? Would they not be the guest bedrooms? Also, it would be more cost effective to have the kids bedrooms sharing a decent sized bathroom. Would you consider rejigging so that the master bedroom had one half of the upstairs, and the kids bedrooms were zoned together? Also what period is your house, I'm just nosey ;)

So many questions, sorry

Anyway, Everyone above has valid points to make, and I love that floor plan with the flanking ensuite and WIR, (much better than)OKLouise!

Good luck with what sounds like a MASSIVE project, either way!

www.pleasedtobijou.com

of course ideally you configure stairs to mitigate winders if possible, however you're controlled by the difference in floor level and also the ratio of step riser to step going dimensions. Clearly this is a rear extension to a traditional frontage and I'm guessing there's a new living/kitchen/dining under the upper level on the ground floor. Without privy to the lower level layout and the ceiling heights endeavouring to be achieved on the lower level it's hard to advise alternative(better) solutions.......first things first stair configuration should ALWAYS be the first thing resolved, rather than squeezed in after. The winder design on the original is strange because it's not as though there's not enough length available to achieve a straight run up with a landing or single return step at the end, nor is it centred in the form as a potential design argument, which actually would make more sense. The issue stems from the stair resolution where the stairs finishes to one side, when a centralised plan is being sought - this then forces excessive circulation space. And then there's the zoning issue of a centralised master splitting the kids bedrooms, which is not ideal. There's also so much more that could be done design wise, such as to subtly differentiate the side bedroom form from the bathrooms, either by pushing out/staggering the external wall of the bathrooms from that of the bedrooms or vice versa rather than having just a straight wall, or developing projecting windows to achieve more interest and period character.......... still don't see the point of 2 separate pokey bathrooms that are arguably under-scaled to a 5 Bedroom residence.....it's like there could to be a centralised hallway from which everything comes off more efficiently, and minimise the circulation space but that would involve stair re-jig......as always it's a delicate balance of various elements and personal preferences and priorities, which is ultimately what design is all about

What about just one bath room for the kids, with possible robes outside rooms or desk study or linen storage. Large Mater suite with free standing tub in the bedroom next to window, with shower and WC together and enter to a double vanity. Enter the master suite via double doors.

Depending on the aspect of your house the kids wing and master robe and ensuite could be swapped cheers

Thanks for all the extra fantastic and helpful input!

Paul Di Stefano:

- I'm very grateful for all your comments critical or not.

- there are pros and cons with any professional and we are happy enough with our architect but the cons are they are super busy with lots of other projects in the local area so we get limited access to them and I have limited time to question them also

- we've gone too far to want to change anyway. They do a lot of the houses in the local area and we've seen 10 of their other houses (they've done over 40 similar properties in the suburb and adjacent suburbs) and we have numerous acquaintances who have used them so will stick with them for better or worse.

- in an ideal world i would spend lots of time researching and interviewing professionals and overseeing this project but my problem is that I have minimal knowledge about renovation and insufficient time/motivation to research it adequately so i have to be guided by the builder and architect and have to accept the reality that it may not be ideal and it may cost more than it could if I could invest more time into it. Ignorance is sometimes bliss :)

- btw we did talk to 2 other architects before signing with our current - both the other architects said that it definitely would not be possible to add 3 bdrms upstairs due to council heritage restrictions but our current architect said it definitely would be possible and he did get them approved without too much hassle (although it did take 15 months or so)

- DA approval was confirmed and a builder is contracted to start work in 2 months. Builder reckons it will take 10-12 months to complete

- the walk through robe to access small master ensuite was one of my original requests as my wife and i wake /sleep at different times everyday so indirect en suite access would minimise disruption to the person sleeping when the other was up

- i've attached the lower level plans as you wanted to see them

- not sure what sketch stage is but the only plans we have are the ones i posted and I don't think our architect does furniture drawings (they use paper plans not CAD) but will try to find out

- i guess you're right about guest bathroom better being on the same floor as guest bedroom so i might ask for the ensuite to open directly into bdrm 3

OK Louise:

thanks for your plan - thats awesome and it seems like a great solutions to our problem!

- my wife loves it so we will seriously consider using it if possible

I really appreciate the effort you went to in doing it

- do you know if the main bedroom and the kids bedrooms would be considered small, medium or large?

Dr Retro:

the stair issue is a bit difficult i think - originally there was a different stair configuration but council rejected it and made us move the stairs - i never quite understood the reason why but i was told that new heritage conservation area regulations stipulate a 1.5 metre separation from the existing property and new extension, which is why the internal stairs have had to be reconfigured (and also why theres an ugly indent into the downstairs living area).

- as an aside, many neurosurgeons would do an adequate job of tonsil removal (but I definitely wouldn't ask and ENT surgeon to remove a brain tumour) ;)

Pleases to Bijou Design:

- yes the property is in an affluent area.

- good point about bathroom situation - i think we hadn't really thought it through like you suggest

- i guess we are after a spa like feel and happy to have the kids use it whilst they are young

- have also toyed with putting the bath downstairs but i feel it would be weird having it on a different level to the main bdrm

- the other bdrms are downstairs - plan attached

- the wife wants the kids to have seperate bathrooms - something to do with them being different sexes

- I'll have to think about the idea of rejigging so that the master bedroom had one half of the upstairs, and the kids bedrooms were zoned together but i thinkn probably to keep it as it is with oklouise's amendments

- house is early 1900's Federation

Siriuskey;

thanks for the plan. i appreciate you going to the trouble of doing it.

i can see it would be appealing to many people having a luxurious mainbdrm like that.

In our situation we don't currently really use the main bdrm much apart for sleeping and i've felt uncomfortable when I recently went to see some project homes in kellyville for ideas when the main bedrooms were too big - for me it felt a bit like being in a hall so i prefer a cosier smaller main brdom

I'd be grateful for any other comments/criticisims about upstairs or downstairs

thanks again!

thank you for your very gracious and detailed response to all our suggestions ... will study the downstairs plans for other ideas for upstairs including a walk through wiw for quieter bathing

I’d centralize the entry to the master between wiw and en-suite and put a doorway at each end to shut off bedroom when needed. This will also allow the two outside rooms and their en-suite to be mirror images.

subject to adequate headroom there should be enough space to have more steps in the downstairs section of the stairs (and have the staircase more of a feature in the entry hall) and allow less steps in the upstairs section so that there can be a more open entry to the upstairs hall and, having an enclosed toilet and shower in the ensuite and adding quieter solid core hinged doors between all rooms and the biw between childrens' and master bedroom should overcome noise in the bedrooms and with all the bathrooms downstairs there should be no need for public access to the ensuite for bed 3 ..and by most standards all the upstairs rooms, including bathrooms, are very good sizes and should be very comfortable

I wonder at the number of bathrooms/powder rooms in the house, isn't it over kill, with so many there should at least be a bath tub down stairs within one of the bathrooms "family".

A bath in an ensuite without an outlook is not ideal anyway. sorry Oklouise not your decision I would always prefer to have the bathrooms on an external wall for light, air and outlook, especially in an upstairs situation, Velux skylights can make a difference but it still feels closed in when the skylight is above in the ceiling, different situation in an attic room where can see something other than the sky. When you are obviously spending a lot of money you should at least expect this

How many family members generations are going to share this house. I guess as you mentioned you are locked in to build.

The laundry is on the opposite side of the house to the mudroom, these spaces would be better combined? with a house of this size I think that you would expect a large master suite with a spa feeling

The questions about the bedroom size. I would class the upstairs bedrooms as large. I consider a 4000 x 4000 size bedroom perfect for all ages, and all bed sizes. These rooms are big, as I assume your budget is to. Also counting your toilets, you have seven (7). Are there seven occupants of the home? Call me old fashioned, I think you learn how to share and compromise and keep things clean when you have to share a bathroom with your siblings, be it male or female. Also, what ages are your children. When they become teenagers, if not already. They will be playing music in their bedrooms and having friends over. From my experience, three teenager girls can sound like 10 girls. Have you thought about the noise factor of having the master between the children's bedrooms. You might find you will be moving downstairs. All the best with your grand renovations.

I second Dreamer with all they have said. I fully disclose my stance on being old fashioned - both in the concept of sharing and also in not wasting resources unnecessarily. But now having seen the plan for the rest of the property, my head is spinning - why are you planning to live in a bungalow out the back of the main house?? and why are there more bathrooms, powder rooms and shower rooms than actual bedrooms? I will leave you all to it, I just dont understand what is trying to be achieved here...

Simon, oh wow, unfortunately a few significant contradictions/issues between what you're saying and the plan..

But in response to a couple of your comments

"I don't think our architect does furniture drawings (they use paper plans not CAD)" - you gotta be kidding me! You just can't design properly without furniture. Not good enough, because you guys are actually not understanding properly what you're getting and you should because you'll be living in it - rather you're taking a blind leap of faith that your architect knows better, which from what I've seen here, I doubt.

"there are pros and cons with any professional and we are happy enough with our architect but the cons are they are super busy with lots of other projects in the local area so we get limited access to them ..." - yes, a big "con" IMO, in more ways than one, disappointing to hear.

"I have minimal knowledge about renovation and insufficient time/motivation to research it adequately so i have to be guided by the builder and architect and have to accept the reality that it may not be ideal and it may cost more than it could if I could invest more time into it. Ignorance is sometimes bliss :)" - OMG!! Well, kind of makes sense why it's turned out this way unfortunately.

And 7 toilets ?? That's ridiculously excessive and kind of says it all - a bloated disconnected mess of a layout which is a real shame

Sincerely hope it works out OK for you and your family, but clearly it's past to point of no return and from this point in it's just some internal tweaks possible this far down the line

Best of luck Simon, I think you're going to need it.

Cheers PD

Sadly it appears that just because I can I will over develop, you appear to be setting up a boutique hotel. Your architect needs to make time for all of his clients, not just squeeze them, it speaks loudly to me that he has taken on too many jobs, greedy, be very concerned. sorry

Unfortunately this happens a lot. Some architectural practices have the charming front man, but when things get too busy projects are passed on to more junior members of staff, sometimes without adequate supervision. The client still thinks that the golden boy is doing the design, but the reality is different. This may be the case with this job...

Best of luck,

Dr Retro

of Dr Retro House Calls.

Is this massive house with a single old carport and mud room nowhere near it? But 7loos. Ridiculous

Bedroom 4, your master bedroom is very large. The same size as most lounge rooms. Your comment about being uncomfortable with a large bedroom, is not matching your house plan.

"appreciate you going to the trouble of doing it. i can see it would be appealing to many people having a luxurious mainbdrm like that. In our situation we don't currently really use the main bdrm much apart for sleeping and i've felt uncomfortable when I recently went to see some project homes in kellyville for ideas when the main bedrooms were too big - for me it felt a bit like being in a hall so i prefer a cosier smaller main brdom I'd be grateful for any other comments/criticisims about upstairs or downstairs thanks again! "

The wardrobes in bed 2,3 and 5 are small in comparison to the rest of the house. The ones upstairs could be increased easily

This existing house is getting such a substantial remodel I would have thought it would be cheaper to knock all down and start with a clean slate so no compromises and can get whole house insulated to current standards

It's in a heritage area so that's not allowed thank goodness

more ideas to consider. (dimensions are only approximate and don't include correct wall thicknesses) small changes upstairs allow for linen and extra storage, a giant shower and big free standing bath and double vanities and enclosed toilet for the ensuite and downstairs i've kept original doors in the entry halls as well as the external door from study 1 to access the new roof terrace and reduced the size of the downstairs powder room in favour of more space for bed 2 and, by stealing space off study 2, there's a more comfortable arrangement for the mudroom and shower room, including furniture and kitchen, bath and laundry fixtures shows circulation space and suggest rotating the kitchen island to keep traffic away from kitchen work areas and added a servery window to an outdoor kitchen but the laundry shute in the original plan doesn't appear to be directly above the laundry so the shute will need to be sloping or accessed from halfway down the stairs?

A house of this size should have a lift then visitors/parents could have privacy away from the family and visa versa, Family members should then have access to bedrooms in the original part of the house along with access to 4 bathrooms for 4 people?

I should have said that it would be a small lift, 2 person/wheelchair. If the bathrooms were reduced in numbers that money could be better spent by installing a small lift.

Kate:

- I like the idea of a door at both ends of the new central bedroom doorway - maybe some kind of thin sliding door or a foldable shutter door might be best?

- house can’t be knocked down/rebuilt due to location in a heritage conservation area

OkLouise:

- thanks again for doing this - I’ve loved all of your updates, they are so well thought out and hope to incorporate them all into the build

- will send you a token of appreciation when the build is finished!

- we have already been thinking about whether to rotate the kitchen island 90 degrees as you have drawn - i think it might look weird? but i’m not sure

- theres a lot for us to process with your new updates so we'll need to spend some time thinking about them!

- i’m resistant to reducing the size of study 2 as that’s the most important room for me as i will spend a lot of time there and it is doubling as a work productivity office/man cave so really want that room to be fantastic!

- i thought the laundry chute was above the laundry but will need to ask the architect

Siriuskey

- I also think there may be too many bathrooms in the house

- due to the good location of the property i think it is hard (within reason) to overcapitalise on the property so believe it will grow well in value in the long run so would rather overdo it than underdo it

- FWIW the other houses in the street/adjacent streets are kind of similar to our proposed plan so its not out of keeping with the area

- am still wondering about combining the downstairs powder room/adjacent en suite into one big bathroom for a bath

- variable number of family members staying but 4 to 11 over 3 generations at various times of the year

- the plan for the mudroom is for it to be the entrance into the house that we use most so it can also act as a cloak room too so that’s why its not near the laundry

- i don’t want a lift in the house as it seems unnecessary for our needs and fi we ever ended up in a situation where we needed a lift we would just sell and downsize

Dreamer:

- i think we (parents) might end up living downstairs when the kids get older/noisier - they are in primary school currently

Pleased to Bijou design

- point taken about number of bathrooms - i don’t really have a good answer

Paul Di Stafano & Dr Retro

- i can sense and empathise with your professional frustrations :)

- thanks for the good luck wishes, I agree we’ll need it

- fortunately I’m a lifelong/relentless optimist and things always seem to work out ok in the end (and if they don’t, I’ll take it as a positive learning experience)

- thanks for the insights into dodgy busy practice business models

mummagabz

- thanks for comment about small robes - will look into making them larger

study restored to original size by extending into the alfresco but kept the bigger mudroom (pool change room?) and the shower room two way access...allows the sudy to be used as a guest room or space for live in housekkeeper or nanny ...the rotated island allows for deeper base cabinets and a giant island is in proportion to the generous rooms

and your appreciation is appreciated but tokens would turn a fascinating hobby into work!.