ee_soh

Is 4.42m wide enough for a kitchen, dining and living area?

Venn Diagram
last month
last modified: last month

Hi there,

I'd love to seek some feedback on my floor plan. Here I attach a screenshot of the floor plan with some measurements.

Floor plan:

Ground: https://imgur.com/a/nBU55YW (If you need bigger image)

First: https://imgur.com/a/P1fKLx4

Currently the width of the kitchen, dining, family, outdoor room are all 4.42m

I wonder if that's too narrow? Or if that's sufficient for a family of 5-6 people (in the future).

Given that my wife and myself are looking at converting the theatre room into a study room. I'm thinking where I should be placing my TV media alcove or cabinet. We've another another leisure area upstairs.

But for downstairs we're thinking:

- If we need one?

- If yes, where should we place it?

Right now it seems that the dining area might be the only place to put it because there's a wall there. As marked by "Red".

But after putting the TV set which will take about 50cm for the tv cabinet's size. 4.42m width size - 0.5 = 3.92m left. Then need to factor in the couch size and distance to TV for viewing pleasure and the couch can't be placed so close to the window (blue block)... the whole dining spot can be quite cramped.

So we're thinking of maybe having a projector and install a projector blind at the (purple location) instead. Making use of the vertical length rather than the width.

The family area will be changed into a formal dining area instead.





Comments (41)

  • Venn Diagram
    Original Author
    last month

    OR if we want to use the family area (4.42m width, 3.78m tall) then we also have a small wall there for the TV cabinet.


  • oklouise
    last month

    please post the rest of the house plans upstairs and down and what are the ages of the people who live in the house and what do you mean by a formal dining room.. where will you eat breakfast?

  • Related Discussions

    Design Dilemma in living dining area

    Q

    Comments (41)
    Hi Chris Good plan revision there may be a couple of things that may help 1. You need 3Ds to make a decision on the front, its not to difficult to do if your Building Designer has the appropriate software, in all my design I give my clients 3Ds because it is difficult to understand spatial concepts from 2D's drawings - even fro people that do it every day. 2. Internal views are often more important than external - you spend more time inside the house than outside., your neighbours my spend more time outside looking at the house. 3. Upstairs I really like the master bedroom, but one of the robe has a window in it this would mean that the clothes would become decoloured. I would remove the window. 4. Also I would remove the window next to the TV in the recreation room - TV's will increase in size and the window might not add to better viewing. In my opinion the recreation area forces people to go around the sofa - children wont they will walk over them - more fun. I think the Tv should be on the Bathroom wall and the room squared of and the real furniture put in to scale - might help a bit with the final decision, some 3D's would help. 5. There seem to be no window in bedroom 4. 6. The downstairs works well, just that the kitchen bench still has a sink in it - not very practical, and a bit old fashioned because it really does not work - tend to spill between sink - stove and fridge - wet floors are not very helpful in work areas like kitchens. Hope this is of some help Regards Michael
    ...See More

    CORNER Fireplace in an open living/dining/kitchen..HELP! w.pics

    Q

    Comments (6)
    Hi Jasmine almost impossible to give you accurate guidance without room measurements. However a layout similar to below could work with the right size furniture & the TV mounted either over the fireplace or close by. If you got 2 backless bar stools at the kitchen bench this would give you added seating as people can turn around & face the lounge area & be a part of the conversation. This layout also keeps the walk way free to the deck area. A rug would anchor the area. However again I can only say that without room measurements it is difficult to give you the best advice.
    ...See More

    Opening bedroom door to kitchen/dining area or to the living area?

    Q

    Comments (13)
    Thank you for all the replies and suggestions. Although the kitchen, dining and the entry area at large would benefit from moving the bedroom door inside, I tend to agree that the privacy and function suffer more from a bedroom door within the lounge. I was suggested elsewhere to widen the lounge entrance and remove its door thus making the layout more open and "modern". I think this would not help, though, with the door positioning problem - either way. Bigreader, bedroom 2 = top room on the layout? It can be used as a spare bedroom but it is surrounded with shutters and large windows. I think It better suited for leisure or as a work space. Oklouise, thank you for the effort in redrawing the layout and experimenting with it. The suggestion for exchanging the hinges direction is spot on. The bathroom is not built yet. I am considering replacing the bath with a partly open shower:
    ...See More

    Kitchen design advice for an open kitchen, dining and living room

    Q

    Comments (2)
    I would do sink on back wall in front of window. Stove on the side wall that has the window. Could do 2 windows either side of stove. With stove on side you can still chat whilst cooking. Tall storage on opposite wall and fridge
    ...See More
  • Venn Diagram
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    @oklouise

    Not a problem, here I attach the full ground and first floor plan.

    Let me know if you need more information.

    Ground: https://imgur.com/a/nBU55YW (If you need bigger image)

    First: https://imgur.com/a/P1fKLx4

    Ages:

    5 adults (20, 30, 35, 50, 60)

    2 children (under 5)

    Where I'm eating breakfast, I'm thinking we'll have the options of:

    - Outdoor room

    - Near the kitchen area (where we will be putting a small dining table)

    - Dining area (Which is where the family area is now)

    What I meant by formal dining is essentially just a bigger dining table.

    Currently, in the floor plan, the dining area is very big which I don't we need that much space.

    So we're thinking of just putting small dining table there close to the bench top.

    Then maybe some of the dining area + some of the family area could be a living area. I attach a mock to explain what I meant.






  • oklouise
    last month

    there seems to be enough space in the family dining area for a big table (not two tables) and a sitting area but the alfresco is in an unusual location when it would be easier next to the kitchen and i don't understand the need for the wide doorway between dining and family in a new house (the nib walls and narrow windows restrict flexible furniture arrangements) and where do all teh sliding glass doors lead to? and the voids in the pantry waste so much useful space and i would keep the separate theatre room to make more flexible downstairs rooms and steal space off the guest suite to make the original study a little bigger and lots of other suggestions but is it too late for extra changes to rearrange rooms and what is the distance between the house and all the boundaries if you wanted to make the kitchen family rooms wider?

  • bigreader
    last month

    Watching this plan with much interest - similar to what I’m planning.

    I would suggest, with that many people in the house, to add a basin to the upstairs toilet.

  • Venn Diagram
    Original Author
    last month

    The reason why the afresco is facing that way is because we've a reserve there and it's more of a pleasing sight. The site cost to leverage the sloppy slope behind the house is abit too high for our liking that's why we aren't touching that area too much.


    The sliding doors lead out to the outdoor compound.


    The wide door way or almost a seamless continuation from kitchen --> dining --> family --> outdoor is to create this visual illusion where you expand into the reserve greenery. We thought might be a very nice touch.


    The other arrangements are from the builder's default.


    The guest bedroom downstairs will have 2 elderly who dislike stairs. So it'll be occupied with 2 adults most of the time.


    To extend the whole kitchen, dining, family area wouldn't be much issue as we still have plenty of space behind. Just the cost for site cost and also the extra sqm fee. We are just wondering if 4.42m is okay or does the extra $$$ justify the extra wider space (1.5m extra?).



  • bigreader
    last month

    I think the 4.42 is tight. If you can afford to go wider I would.

  • Kate
    last month

    Is this a new build?
    Firstly agree toilet upstairs needs a basin otherwise incorporate it into bathroom, nothing worse than not being able to wash hands because some one is in bathroom.
    Downstairs has to many windows and doors and room breakup for your required functionality, However your projector screen can be pulled down and block one with no problem when I use.
    If you mainly eat inside I would have the big table close to kitchen so you are not traipsing plates through the tv zone,
    5 mx 5 would be better but it’s all money.Can you avoide the narrowing between the two living zones?

  • Venn Diagram
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    @bigreader @Kate

    Yup, will take into consideration of the extra basin. Potentially converting it into a powder room?

    @Kate

    Yes, this is a new build.

    We're concerning about dining table not being close to kitchen too. The manoeuvre that needed to happen to bring food to table and avoid all the living area furniture can be annoying.

    When you say the narrowing between the two living zones? What do you mean precisely? Is it as per attached? That's the beams to support the upstairs I would assume based on the floor plan.


  • oklouise
    last month

    a beam for upstairs can be supported inside the side walls and doesn't need the nib walls that can interfere with placement of furniture for seating areas ...


  • Venn Diagram
    Original Author
    last month

    @MB Design & Drafting Ah that's a really good point. I never thought about the bedside tables issue. Surfacing more issues as I speak to all you experts.


    Yea, we're thinking as well what's the best way to narrow down the ensuite in the master bed room while making more space for the robe as well but kind of struggle to think of a configuration in the ensuite bathroom that can have:


    - Bath tub

    - Shower

    - His/Her basin

    - Toilet

  • Venn Diagram
    Original Author
    last month

    @oklouise I'll check with the builder and see if it's possible to remove the nib wall or there's a purpose to that because I do agree the nib, protruding out is causing some headache.

  • Venn Diagram
    Original Author
    last month

    Hi team, I might go back to the drawing board again to figure out how I could amend the plans.


    From what I heard so far:

    - Add a basin at the top toilet.

    - If we were to have king size bed, we can't have side table in master.

    - If we can afford, extend the size of the living space will be better.

    - See if we could remove the nib wall on the ground floor.


    Are there any other things I should take note of?


    Questions from me:

    - I wonder how much extra width should I factor in? ~1.5m extra? To make it 4.42 --> 6m?

    - What do you all think about the windows configuration on the ground floor? Should I make them less? Make them shorter so I can have better furniture/couch placement?


    Of course all of these will be subjected to cost (which I don't know yet)

  • dreamer
    last month
    last modified: last month

    I would only have one large table. You could have a small round table closer to kitchen for two or four people. But don't bother with two big tables. But you may live differently.
    My home, kitchen living and dining is 5400mm x 10500mm. No nib walls, steel beams were installed in construction to support concrete slab above.

    YOUR AREA is 4420mm x 14150mm, so this is a BIG area. The table could be length ways and you will have plenty of room around the table. (as per oklouise plan posted yesterday) No need to widen the area. the only compromise is, your doors to outside are at the end of the room, therefore making it a thoroughfare to outside. This is when furniture placement needs to be taken in to consideration.

  • dreamer
    last month

    Looking at your plans regarding the beam between living and dining, you may have to pay for a larger beam and extra footings. Currently you have a bulkhead so the beam is sitting on the nib and external walls. The nib walls would be helping in taking the load of upstairs.
    Your upstairs slab, is this concrete or wood frame, or a combination of the two.
    There is nothing wrong with the current nib walls, they have an important purpose and define the two rooms, while still keeping the area open.

  • Venn Diagram
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    @dreamer I tried searching for net for what's a bulkhead and nib wall to really understand that. Are there any photo links that someone could share with me so that I really understand what's that for?

    Sorry I know this might be a noob question.

    Very new in all these.


    Bulkhead?



    Nib wall?


  • bigreader
    last month

    Just ask your builder can they remove the sticky out bits between the Dining and Family to give you furniture arranging flexible. And is there a cost impact?

    Once you almost finalise your design, add furniture to scale in the rooms. That will answer your question about window sizes.

  • dreamer
    last month

    Steel beams or large wooden beams are required to support the floor above, or roof structure.
    The "load" of the upstairs needs to be spread evenly across the ground. The nib walls are built on either side to support the beam and spread " the load" or weight of upper storey.
    You will find on structural plans the concrete floor or wooden floor will have footings dug into ground to transfer the load/weight into the ground.
    I have added a few picture of beams. The bulkhead is a cover to disguise the essential beam. The nib wall is the vertical support for the load or weight. The finished home photo is showing the home completed with beams and vertical supports, but they have kept them open, have not covered with plasterboard.

  • dreamer
    last month

    These photos are showing the nib wall and bulkhead in my home.
    This is for the same reason for your nib walls and bulk head in your plan between family and dining.
    It is unobtrusive and is part of the design.

  • dreamer
    last month

    You will notice there are quite a few bulkheads throughout your plan.
    These are disguising plumbing ducts, air con ducts, electrical cabling, fire regulation bulkheads, and probably some small beams. And some may be purely to improve the look of your home.

  • bargainhunter
    last month

    I think 6m wide for living area would be much better given the number of people in your house

  • dreamer
    last month

    @Venn Diagram, you have said that you have not received a costing as yet.
    This may determine whether you keep the 4420 width or change to 6000mm.

  • Venn Diagram
    Original Author
    last month

    @dreamer yup, we haven't received a costing yet. But it's likely 1000$ per sqm. And apparently if we extend downstairs we'll have to extend upstairs too.

  • pottsy99
    last month

    I may have missed some points sorry , but it seems the first question you are asking is whether to change the dining into a theatre ? As at least a couple of people have said , having the dining by the kitchen is logical , for a reason .


    But I don't think anyone has suggested asking the builder if you can leave out the wall between the rooms shown as dining and theatre ? Sure , there'll be supports for upstairs , but they are normally in the corners . And yes , theres doors and windows on the 'left' side of the dining . But if you have heavy drapes ( even if you have 2 or 3 sets -- heavy , light and sunshade for example ) , and the screen on the 'right' side wall , you can have chairs and couches but even the option of 'including' more viewers sitting in dining chairs . Probably wouldn't work having a serious drama while eating , and a lot of people either don't want the news on , or don't want the news too big haha , so you have thge option of turning off or having as basically a moving and evolving feature wall .


    Just a thought . Oh , and that works at 4.2 width , or 5 or 6 or whatever suits .


    To me , it makes more sense and less compromises than any other readily available option ?

  • Kate
    last month

    I think you need to rethink the a,Lund of windows and doors so you have wall space where needed for the screen and couch space. If you widen you can reduce length, upstairs this may require changes to walk in robes as widen and reduce upstairs but maintain same floor area.

  • oklouise
    last month

    a quote of $1000 per sqm is surprising and i would check again to see what's not included as prices quoted are normally at least $2000-$3000 per sqm

  • dreamer
    last month

    Another suggestion.
    Do you need the full current width of theatre room to be your and wife's study. Could you reduce space by 1000mm.
    Extend the family room across towards the laundry as well.
    Put your drop down cinema screen in the 1000mm alcove.
    Remove doors from that side. This would make furniture placement easier. Also where is your clothes line going? Ideally it would be out from the laundry, but then your washing would be on view through the windows, as plan is currently.

  • Venn Diagram
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    @oklouise That's what I was being told at the moment. $1000 per sqm. But yes the builder is away now but once he's back to work I'll make sure I 2x check on that.

    @dreamer Thanks for the option. Currently, we're looking at getting more working space in the house as more people are studying + working from home. We kind of need more of those spaces. The sliding door from family to the compound is intentional as we would want to have this center courtyard idea. For the clothing line, we haven't thought so much about it just yet. But yes, you're right it needs to be placed close to the laundry but also not at a sore sight. So maybe we won't mind walking abit and place it further away.




  • dreamer
    last month

    Maybe keep the sliding glass doors, and do not extend, but put the theatre screen in that place. Mounted to ceiling. Only pulled down when watching movies.
    Have your 50" TV on low unit as per oklouise design.
    When you say "compound" I keep thinking your in a jail or gated home. Maybe you need to call it your lands, "open space". To me gives a nicer image.

  • siriuskey
    last month

    the following suggestion reduces that long long room and make it wider by swapping a couple of spaces to make the kitchen and alfresco work better


  • Venn Diagram
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    Hi team, my builder has gotten back to us and here is an update.

    - We could remove the NIB walls. (It's purely decorative)

    - We can extend the dining / family / outdoor area by 0.8m for $15000. Garage needs to be 1m behind dwelling (not the portico) for CDC compliance. By extending this, we'll also have to extend the upstair's leisure area.

    In total an increase in floor area to the ground floor and Outdoor Room of approx 10m2 and 3.2m2 to the Leisure Room. Worth it?

    Ground floor


    First floor



    What do you all think about this new adjustment?

    The upstairs corridor to bedroom 3 and 4 is 1.35m wide now but to accommodate the extra basin, it'll need to be 1.2m or 1.05m (if 300mm). Is that too narrow or if that's okay?

    Cheers,

    Venn.

  • dreamer
    last month

    If an increase of $15000 is in your budget, then yes do the amendments to rooms. Good news about NIB walls.
    The hallway upstairs, reducing width, will still be okay.

    Just out of interest, what materials are you building out of. Purely wood and cladding or brick veneer, or double brick?

    And your rear land is sloping not sloppy.🙂

  • Venn Diagram
    Original Author
    last month

    Yes it's sloping (:
    and the building material is made of brick.

  • Venn Diagram
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    Further questions, I've some questions that I'd like to seek opinions from all.

    Blue shaded = Windows/Glass sliding door

    Red shaded = Wall

    Currently, my wife and myself are thinking if we should have walls that are all windows and glass sliding doors as per this image below. Obviously the con is that we can't have any furniture or tv cabinet there but that after researching Pinterest, it seems that all beautiful homes these days have these "glass-enclose" feel. Not sure if it's practical but it definitely looks nice.




    Another option that we're thinking is to have piece of wall that we can place the tv cabinet (if we want to) or any other furniture/shelves in the future




    What are the pros/cons?


    I'm thinking of having the wall there because at least it's "future proof" if we don't want to have a TV there, it can be functional and we can have shelves etc. If we want to have a TV cabinet we can.

    But my wife thinks having everything enclosed in glass/window/sliding door are nicer and the living area shouldn't need to have a TV since we already have a leisure TV area at the upstairs.

    Thanks,

    Venn.

  • dreamer
    last month

    Hi Venn, Can you please confirm which way is North, south, east, west.


    If you have a TV upstairs, and only some of the family are watching it, since it is amongst the bedrooms, will it keep other occupants awake?

  • dreamer
    last month

    Have you taken into account the extra horizontal supports that will be needed, therefore cost, to only have windows. You may find you still need supporting wall structures along the building. Remembering that you have a second storey that will need supporting.

    Therefore you may find your budget will only accommodate windows in the ground floor, that does not have the second storey above it.

  • Venn Diagram
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    @dreamer here I attach the orientation of the house.

    Yea, I do have concerns about too much noise upstairs if there's people who want to rest and sleep.

    I've checked with the builder, family area itself is independent and not supporting upstairs. But yes, might not be possible to have all windows with dining area.


  • dreamer
    last month

    Venn, your home will still look wonderful with structural walls between windows.
    The orientation of your home is perfect to have the windows.
    All the best with your build.

  • lurchsmum
    last month

    I think more closet space is more important than two sinks in an ensuite. That is such a waste of space and $$ for the number of times you would both be using at the same time. I married nearly 50 years and have a new home with one sink in ensuite. Never once in all that time have we thought life would be better with twin sinks. but you can never have too many cupboards!

  • dreamer
    last month

    I have double sinks in our ensuite, and we use them both at the same time when getting ready for bed, or if getting ready to go out. I also have double sinks in the main bathroom for ease of the rest of the family getting ready in the morning.
    I personally find that more cupboards lead to hanging on to things that are not really required.
    We all live differently and it is wonderful that Venn, can build a home that is suited to his family.