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I wish I hadn't removed my Savannah some years ago. Its pancake flat full open bloom bothered me then. These days, its redeeming qualities as Daniela shows, make me realize that my past decision was a poor, hasty one. If I had just given it more time I would have discovered that not all its blooms go flat. I live quite happily with my Bliss which in almost every case the full open blooms loose profile depth.....still a much beloved rose to me.
I have since seen a magnificent specimen of Savannah growing in a friend's garden that makes me double regretful.
There's only one solution, put Savannah at the front of my future purchases list.
Moses.
Dianela, your Savannah is beautiful and healthy. I tried twice and both times mine weren’t great, but I do remember the wonderful fragrance. My experience was prob similar to Claudia’s.
Thats interesting and disapointing to hear Claudia and Kentucky_rose. I am not sure where Claudia is but I thought most of Kentucky and my Northwest Alabama corner were almost identical in clay soil and climate. I would expect them to behave at least similar. Roses act so unusual sometimes.
Sultry,
Although I have not seen Home Depot Online offer Peach Melba so far, perhaps it would be a good choice for your Gazebo. PM having won the ADR designation, its black spot resistance is a certainty.
Ordering from Wal-Mart Online has been an equally excellent source of quality, low priced container grown stock for me. Free shipping from Wal-Mart begins with a minimum $35.00 purchase. I have gotten the same art supplies through W-M as are sold on Amazon for considerably less cost.
Hope your Gazebo project turns out exceeding your expectations.
Moses.
@Lilly, Louis Philippe looks great In the port st. Lucie botanical garden so that was a good suggestion. Moses Moses, you know how I love peach Melba! It's in the ground now and I can't wait to see how It does over the winter. Fingers crossed.
@Moses, Pitt PA, cold W & warm/humid S z6 I saw a few replies down you started a list of perennials you recommend. I really enjoyed reading your detailed thoughts on each one and would welcome it if you felt like adding to the list.
I also saw in another thread you mentioned Roses Unlimited. I don't know if you're aware but they're closing at the end of the year, so if you think you want anything from them time is short. They sent out emails to some of their long time customers. I have bought from them twice but didn't make the list, so it caught me off guard also.
On HMFR's evaluation site the reports on Love Song's disease resistance are very favorable. The foliage is listed as being strong, holding on all summer long. Its flower output is also very favorably reported upon. Stem weakness in holding up sometimes disheveled booms was commented upon, and little/no scent seem to be the only negatives on it.
Wish I grew it and could give first hand info.
I would be cautiously optimistic about it not requiring spraying for disease.
Winter hardiness may be an issue, though.
Moses.
That lavender color is what drew me to Love Song too, and Moses makes a good point about its disease resistance. In a humid zone 6b summer like Rhode Island, I would still give it plenty of morning sun and good air circulation and skip spraying unless black spot actually shows up. Have you thought about planting it somewhere sheltered from harsh winter wind, since hardiness seems like the bigger question here?
I actually don't have any spots sheltered from wind....unfortunately the house came with 48 pine trees.
Vapor,
II wanted to support your post but because of the ravages of the reinfestation of rose midge fly in late summer, and the devastation of saw fly and cabbage butterfly caterpillar damage, my flower output for the fall flush was/is abysmal.
I will say though, that the flower of Reminiscent Coral is huge and has a presence that draws you in. There is one fading bloom now on my one and only bush, which was outstanding at its peak. I was planning to remove Reminiscent Coral because it defoliated from black spot to an unacceptable level, but that lovely flower has caused me to give it a reprieve. If I need to spray it next year, I will, reluctantly, because of my goal of having a black spot free a rose garden as is possible, is not being kept....but that flower! Hopefully it will mature out of its black spot susceptibility.
Moses.
Yes Vapor, I have to pick my varieties carefully because I have such limited space available with only one bed of roses. It's big for one bed being 18' long and 8' deep, front to back, but that's all the space I have available in my tiny city 20' X 100' lot. 50' X 20' is my house, and 25' X 20' is the garden and patio space with 25' X 20' for the car pad.
The mirror bed to the rose bed, on the other side of the center walk, used to be all winter hardy cacti. Folks did a double take when they saw the cactus bed, especially during wintertime. The cacti were a spectacle when in full bloom in June, and were a passion of mine, a 35 year long project. They had to be removed last year with great regrets, but the dangers of a fall into the bed were too serious for me to ignore. Now the bed is dedicated to dwarf conifers. What gems they are.
I will be forced to spray a systemic insecticide next year, and because for the program I developed which kept the Rose Midge Fly pretty much under control in the past, it needs to be done without fail, every two weeks to 10 days.
I also have found that some rose varieties are almost Rose Midge Fly proof. They are the ones like the Drifts, whose small green flower buds are often passed over. The substantial, large green budded varieties having chunky new growth tips are mercilessly attacked.
Moses.
Tottering Gently By is giving a fall flush despite having set loads of hips. It is on my remove list because it defoliates so badly, but… it is not without its charms.
Plum Perfect is always especially pretty in the fall
Clotilde de Soupert is always lovely in the fall too. Tall ageratum is onenof my favorite annuals for pairing with roses. The powder blue looks good with everything.
Lovely! That blue/pink combination is charming.
How about Brindabella Purple Prince? You can get quite a large bush of it at Home Depot Online for a very good price, shipped free. Wait until spring 2027 if this option interests you. Early May is perfect timing with Home Depot, before heat kicks in.
I have Brindabella Pink Princess, Brindabella Dawn, and Brindabella First Lady. They are being trialed so no final report is out yet. I hope to add B. Purple Prince soon. They are very promising so far. B. Pink Princess is the oldest of the three and has been superior in fighting black spot. She almost needs no dead heading to keep putting out blooms.
Moses.
Markay,
Your Dee-Lish would make mine blush. I only get flowers at my bushes' top halves because mine are bedding bushes with close neighbors, plus your gardening skills make me feel like a child playing in a sandbox compared to a nuclear physicist working out equations at the chalkboard.
Jim,
You can see by Markay's photo that Dee-Lish does get tall and slenderly columnar....all on its own. No special pruning seems able to change its mind. Another nice thing about this soldier is there have never been any octopus arms on any of mine. The canes are super strong and never lean with the weight of rain soaked blooms as so many long caned roses do. You know how summer rains can cause a bush to loose its form with canes knocked over by the weight of water saturated foliage and blooms. This is a rare event with Dee-Lish.
I hope yours exceeds your expectations. Go for it!
Rifis,
Isn't it amazing how roses travel. Brindabella Purple Prince was developed by an Australian couple from humid Queensland, hence the need for black spot resistance which all the Brindabella line of roses (and there are a slew of them), seem to possess. Then a BPP at a commercial greenhouse in Sarasota Florida is discovered to mutate to a pink form instead of the normal purple. It is given source recognition and named Brindabella Pink Princess, quite fittingly
I imagine B. Pink Princess has worked her way back to Australia, to the original breeders, John and Sylvia Gray. Counting the trip made by the parent rose B. Purple Prince, B. Pink Princess has a circumnavigation credit to her accolades!
Moses.
Jim,
Another thing about Dee-Lish is that mine have never made those massive basal canes that have candelabra flower clusters at their tips. All basals and laterials end in clusters of no more than 5 buds on my bushes so far, and they are 5+ yrs. old. I like this trait. Although having a basal with 20+ buds is impressive, the growth usually throws the bush's form out of balance, often towering over it. As the buds in a candelabra bloom in succession the last to open are often disappointingly undersized, and the space in the bush's top that the worn out candelabra demands is a gaping eyesore. Just my opinion shared.
Moses.
I don’t tend to get after Dee-lish very aggressively because it drops its petals well, holds a nice shape, and reblooms regardless - plus the birds like to nest in it.
Thanks, Markay! I'll be sure to get after mine more aggressively, given that it'll be living in a 15 gallon pot :-D
Be careful everyone. Be conservative in your dealings until you are satisfied that your money is well spent. My wish is that they succeed and become the go to nursery for hard to find roses, with high praises from all their Roses Forum customers.
Moses.
You make good points, Elina. Rarely in commerce is there a merchant who takes an 'Honest Abe,' approach to his profit margjns. They're out there, but not in buckets full.
Moses.
And… Francis Roses lists on website these partner nurseries…
The list starts:
56 Flowers, Milton, Ontario
All My Thyme
Berridge Nurseries
FL Sunshine Roses
Foxview Roses
Fuirk Roses
Otto & Sons
Raft Island
Sundrops Nursery
Redland Ranch Roses
Sweet Hilltop Farm & Nursery
The Rose Cove
Thorncrest Rose Farm
I saw Raft Island -it has a large Francis Roses Inventory, but not all. I looked at Foxview a week ago-they had some roses. . I looked at Fuirk this morning-they have a few Francis roses.
I may sit this one out. Rallye is intriguing.
La mesa y el marco del espejo ya tienen bastante brillo. Para un aspecto más moderno, pondría un jarrón de cerámica mate (blanco roto o negro) con pocas ramas o flores, y una bandeja baja para llaves en el otro extremo. Dejaría el centro despejado para que el conjunto respire; antes de comprar, probaría la altura del jarrón con una caja o cinta para comprobar que no tapa demasiado el espejo. Aviso: respondo en nombre de Arbovo, una marca de muebles.
Hola Sandra,
Te aconsejo que disenes tu propio arregio floral artificial usando un producto de alta calidad. La empress Nearly Natural Artificial Plants tiene unas rosas y otras plantas que se ven geniales. Mantienen sus precios dentro de lo rozanable. Esta empresa tambien vende a traves de Amazon, asi que si tienes Amazon Prime, el envio es gratis. Puedes usar jarrones que elijas tu mismo para satisfacer tus necesidades.
Moses.
Cynthia et al,
I too am a teacher, taught art, mostly sculpture, retired for some time now, except...
Three weeks ago I was asked to take a class, once a week, at a private, home location, not a school. Enrollment is growing, but now is 7 students. If it was just 1, I would proceed the same.
The incredibleness of my call up is that the students are mostly children of my former students from many years ago!
The current state of art and music education both in some private and public schools is abysmal these days. Music and art are the first subjects effected by budget cuts. The parents and still living grandparents who saw the current poor state of their childrens' art education, are the ones behind me coming out of retirement, but on a small scale.
The request of me came right out of the clear blue. I was called on a Sunday and was told my first class was on the next Tuesday, in two days! Never in my wildest imagination did I ever think that I would be teaching again. God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform.
A friend of mine who knows how painfully disabling my CMT Disease is, asked me, "How will you be able to stand all that time, teaching?" I sit, I said. You know, Cynthia et al, it never occurred to me that I was sitting and teaching! My students all sit at one huge table, with table top easels. I sit in the middle of a long side of the table. I'm teaching painting, not sculpture.
Please pray for me in this new endeavor.
Moses.
Oh, Moses!! I'm so glad you have this new excitement about enriching students by teaching them to paint. :) I'll pray for you, for sure. I'm tickled pink by this.
Cynthia - rose scratches are part of the experience. lol Just make sure you're up to date on your tetanus shot. :)
Oh, and by the way, I used to be a teacher too!
I would like to know if it is true what I have been told, that Rose Rosette Virus was released into the wild many years ago to kill the invasive farmland weed, Wild Rosa Multiflora? The story that I was told continues. It did not effectively kill the noxious Wild Rosa Multiflora, but popped up in home gardens, public rose landscape plantings, and commercial rose establishments, as we all well know that it has.
Moses.
Roseseek,
Thank you for your excellent clarification. Greatly appreciated.
I lost a venerable, much beloved Lady Ashe and at the same time, a geriatric, enormous Quietness a few years back to RRV. I think that with growing roses in some parts of the USA, contracting a round of RRV among one's roses is an inevitable rite of initiation.
Moses.
I'd place full faith in Ann's reporting as she's been THE "go to" person on the subject for far too many years to mention. Thank you, Ann.
I'm also all in on Ann's reporting. It's just odd how back when I started growing roses like a fiend in the 90s, and became aware of RRD, you could easily find scientific references of the Iowa State (Ames) involvement. Then they gradually disappeared from searches over the years. I'm a science person, not a conspiracy theorist, but I've often wondered about how that happened.
Same here, no significant scent detected from my Pinkerbelle.
BTW,
I think that if Pinkerbelle had been given a more noble? name, like Choicest Friend, or whatever other name that would elicit a more dignified image, the rose would be more popular. Pinkerbelle........the name to me can't get a positive response, but the rose itself, a strong YES!
Moses.
@rosecanadian
I notice that many fragrant roses smell best on first day when opening in warm or hot weather. As it gets cooler in fall I see fragrance lessens and dissappears. . I used to not even smell my roses or just occassionally smell them. I think many roses have fragrances the common gardener does not notice, like me in the past. I think you really need to tune into smelling them and learning when they peak in fragrance to understand that particular rose fragrance.
Pinkerbelle may have a wonderful fragrance in warm weather, just as it starts opening, if caught at the right time.
I realize there is light, moderate & strong fragrances in roses. I am sure Pinkerbelle has some fragrance. I read it was strong & moderate, a Verbena-citrus scent. Love to check it out.
I smell many of my roses sonetimes daily, now, searching for scents. Would be fun to notice and identify different notes in their fragrances.
My interest in rose fragrance has been peaked by you, Carol! Thank you! A whole new world ”to find joy in fragrances has unfolded for me.”
Hopefully, Pinkerbelle will be a lovely fragrance we can enjoy!
Oh, I'm glad I could lead you by your nose. lol :) :) Rose fragrances are truly joyful, as you said. :) Yes, I'm hoping for a great fragrance from Pinkberbelle.
Houzz is a nightmare for some. I'm one of them. My internet system is not compatible with Houzz's. Composing here is daunting. Erased entries, duplicated paragraphs, horrible spell checks, etc., make me cringe.
About your chili thrips....I believe a conventional systemic insecticide sprayed faithfully, like Bio-Advanced Complete Insect Killer, $16.99, 40 oz. on Amazon, at 1 tbl./gal. water, sprayed every 10 days at first for a month and thereafter, every two weeks. Spray the entire bush, concentrating on new growth since the systemic nature of this insecticide does not travel to new, unsprayed (as yet), growth. It is translaminar so both leaf sides need not be sprayed, just the upper surfaces.
Organic and predatory insect remedies often are ineffective.
I'm in your age sphere, too. Keep positive!
Moses.
The organics and predatory insects work in text books. In the real world......let your experience educate you.
Get yourself an alkaline battery powered sprayer.
I have the Scott's, 2 gal. rechargeable @ $79.00. It works very satisfactorily, however some cons should be noted: It's a little heavy just empty, and top heavy (tips over too easily), but I do not carry it while spraying, just moving it by my side on the ground next to me, then I spray away. The spray force is a little weak even when well charged, but adequate.
If I was to replace my Scott's I would look at the Ryobi 1 gal. at $109.00, or Chapin's Autosprayer, 2 gal. at $89.97.
I must spray for: Saw Fly caterpillars, Cabbage Butterfly caterpillars, and after a year's+ respit, the much dreaded Rose Midge Fly maggots have seemingly returned. To control these three, I must spray from April to the end of September.
I wish you a successful victory in your battle against the chili thrip. I do not have this nasty one, but the reports from those who do are horrific.
BTW, I have ~60 rose bushes, counting the Drifts. That's plenty for me.
Moses.
Do more searching for experiences in the state of Florida. They have hot and humid and have had chili thrips for a decade plus.
DON'T limit your search to roses because a lot of other plants are equally susceptible.
There are some small sprayers that are battery powered that might work
Your first job is to make sure you take care of you. Then if you see places where you might fall, change them to safer.
Getting older means you have to do for yourself and make decisions with a what if condicil. There are some slopes on my hillside I just won't walk down because .....age is unavoidable, but has become a work around.
thank you everyome. i do have 3 different battery sprayers. i hope cold weather comes before I must spray then next spring I will be able to prrvent before they teach monumental take over of my roses. i fo have some tiny new growth but it looks a little stunted maybe strange. Mostly I sm trying to drcide how to move forward amd decide if my plants still have chili. If i use my Conserve it will kill the hard work I did with those 4 cans of predators.
i do thank everyone the webdite is not alloeing me to easily chose that option.
Ken,
St. Patrick is a black spotter here in my warm/humid summers, big time. It does hold its yellow color well. Hopefully, Chessie's BF lives were it's dry, in which case St. Patrick would be a good fit.
Moses.
I'm certainly taking notes. Yellow is the biggest color gap in my collection, and my sister loves yellow most of all so I have been wanting to find a few more good ones.
II loveI love South Africa but I have trouble getting a healthy one to growI All i have read says it is easy and strong…. but hey NOT FOR ME.
Great news that both the new True Gratitude and your existing "True" roses are doing so well for you! I agree that it's risky to expect that these True roses will stay at the advertised 3X3' size even in a cold climate. Except for the genuinely compact True Love, all my "True" roses are extremely robust and tend to be 5-6' tall with lanky arms. I sincerely wonder what they'll be like in successive years.
My True Affection is particularly long and lanky and I planted it at the front of a bed expecting it to be 3X3 feet. I've draped its arms along a low 2' fence in front of that bed and it rivals the size of Wollerton Old Hall climber next to it (that was mislabeled as a smaller rose). Both are covering that small wire fence and I keep having to tuck laterals back into the fence. I
like that effect and have done the same deliberately further down that bed for Dame des Chenonceau and Lion's Fairy Tale that were gorgeous in spilling over the fence in my previous version of a rose garden. The original Ringo has turned out to do the same in a different bed so beware the low size estimates for that family too.
Enjoy the roses and the bonus opportunity to spread Gratitude in your garden!
Cynthia
Cynthia,
It's nice to have a rose that exceeds its expected, listed dimensions as long as it does so moderately or responds well to restraining it.
It appears that my one and only rose bed is finally beginning to come together, at least it's giving more than it is taking, these 40+ years since it all began. It's quite an education learning how to get a nice bed going. The casual observer hasn't a clue what we rosarians go through to achieve a successful rose garden.
The time involved in trialing new bushes, so many of which turn out to be unsatisfactory, is something that stretches on for years. Of course the challenges of the process is what edges us on. It's a silent experiment only another rosarian understands.
When folks pay me a compliment on my roses I usually quip, "Roses torture me!" They immediately think it's the thorns I'm talking about. When I start to explain what I meant, and in great detail, they head for the hills!
Moses.
Markay,
I agree, late season black spot is inconsequential. As long as a bush makes it to the end of August with about 2/3 of its leaves clean, and just the bottom 1/3 are spotted or defoliated from black spot, AND that bush grew vigorously all summer long, it is OK in my estimation.
Your earlier photo of Sweet Spirit shows a fantastic bush in all regards.
Moses.
I agree with Moses, a rose that holds up to the end of summer is good enough here.
That pink rose behind Soul Sister could be Brindabella First Lady. This is a wild guess of mine, FWIW!
Moses.
Yikes, you are so right about those thorns and blood thinners. My son in law is on blood thinners and has been mangled by some of my roses, mainly when he is mowing the yard. I try to keep the roses contained within their beds
......and I didn't mean to go off topic, either. I checked Sunbelt Soul Sister on HMF, and felt the photos there were not nearly as lovely as the photos Rosylady shows way above. I'm not convinced it's Soul Sister, either. Maybe I need to look again and do more checking. Diane
Trish and Diane, I've taken a blood thinner since 2010, when I had an episode of atrial fibrillation. The funny part is that (growing many roses), I sometimes nick myself while working with them. Other than grabbing a paper towel from the garage, I also hold my arm above my head until it stops. I can't tell you the number of times people have driven by and waved at me, thinking that I'm waving at them :-D
Unless you are willing to spray aggressively with the organic controls or a little less aggressively using the conventional controls, for the dreaded black spot, and the less dreaded powdery and downy mildew, not to forget cercospora, your garden will look a hot mess growing those black spot magnets you listed.
Make your selections from ADR, A.R.T.S, and AGRS trialed/tested roses, and you will have a much easier time growing roses.
Moses.
Where do you garden, Patricia?
Moses.
Awesome! Best wishes to whatever roses you choose Double Delight! :-)
Kitty - exceptional blooms!! Both of them are incredibly beautiful!
The hoops I have to jump through to post are mind boggling. No other place on the web presents such obstacles for me. As AI progresses, hopefully Houzz will clean up its act.
Moses.
No problems yesterday, and since this was the first thread I read tonight, I jumped over to Jim's DEO thread and clicked to enlarge his new pic and hit like with no problems. I use a MacBook Air laptop and Safari as browser. No interest in using Houzz on my phone. But I have occasionally used my phone to quickly look up old threads by Googling them if I'm too lazy to drag out my laptop. Works fine, but it's read-only thing b/c I'm not registered via my phone here. Fig, I hope you get it worked out!
I only use a MacBook Pro computer, and have never had those kinds of problems.
Jackie
Elestrial,
At Ben's evaluation of the situation, why not order a Timeless Purple, a.k.a. Showpiece Berry, from Wal-Mart Online for $53.00 postage free? If you order it now you'll have it in 2-3 days. Of course, it will probably be own root, and not grafted on R. multiflora. Also, in your zone 7a, a fall planting may be dicey. If you have a winter storage place to hold it over until spring planting, at would work.
Moses.
Elestrial,
You never know how well your Timeless Purple will do for you under your care, in your garden. Don't let reports on its disease resistance worry you. Perhaps planting it in the new spot where you have the best air circulation there will help it better overcome its disease resistance shortfalls. I know that in my deep bed garden, 8'+ deep, the roses in the middle show more black spot than the same varieties growing closer to the front or at the back (the back's a chain link fence).
At any rate, I wish you great success with your Timeless Purple, a remarkably beautiful rose.
Moses.
BTW, my two, 2 gallon, True Bloom True Gratitudes came today. I'm rushed now, but will attend to them later after I return home from running errands. The one I opened has 5 blooms. They're small, but have the correct saturated color typical of True Gratitude. The bush itself is large and well grown. They were shipped from San Antonio, Texas, on Tuesday, and arrived here in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on Friday, three days later. Not bad!
Yes, Elestrial, they were ordered from WAL-MART Online. They are 2 gallon size, and are really 2 gallon size bushes, not a gallon sized bush in a two gallon sized pot. They were $24.95 ea., free shipping after $35.00 order total, so I purchased 2, both needed.
Moses.
Carol - Wow, Purple Aura was one I was considering, yours looks beautiful. How is her fragrance and health? Your Sweet Madame Blue is also fantastic
I really like Lavender Crush's frgrance, and as an added bonus it wafts well too. Healthy. She is rather stiff though and hard to train, I have her on a tall, narrow trellis which was a mistake
Elestrial - thanks! It has a very nice clove or cinnamon scent, depending on the day. It was very healthy for me. Sweet Madame Blue is a tried and true rose here, and I heartily recommend it. :) Oh....that's why I've never thought about...it's a tall one. But...since it's stiff, that may be okay. Hmmm...I'll see if my regular place has it when the list comes out. :) Thanks!
Jim,
What wonderful news, Jim!
You have been spared a horrendous ordeal, because if your results were opposite findings, the treatment program you would most likely have gone through is barbaric, necessary to save life, but brutally barbaric.
Also, after all treatments are concluded, and have been successful, even to the state of a full cure, as I have been so blessed to receive, permanent, irreversible side effects of epic proportions because of the treatments must be faced, and reconciled with.
Don't get me wrong, Jim. I am eternally grateful to the doctors. They pulled out all the stops of extreme efforts as they administered their best medical care possible to me in order to save my life, but the treatments were brutally barbaric, and the permanent side effects almost beyond comprehension.
Thank God, you've been spared!
Moses.
Judi,
That path is extraordinarily beautiful. It's too spectacular to walk on! You're inspirational!
Plus: You're good with the camera. I can't take a picture to save my life, and I was an art teacher!
Moses.
Prom Night (Ragazza), does anyone have info on this Michal Adam/NIRP rose?
I think $55 is potted plant and bareroot maybe $35.
Carol, thanks.
Carol,
Almost all Francis Rosrs are bare roots on Dr Huey. AL is not correct. You already ordered a bunch of rosrs last season from Francis Roses, grafted on Dr Huey. It is not necessarily prone to mildew/fungus. it depends in the rose grated on it. Apso, any grafted rose on any rose stock, Fortunia, Dr. Huey, Mutiflora, ect can
Ken,
Do you think Hot Princess will grow as well for me own root as it would grafted, gotten as a budded maiden from Wisconsin Roses?
Why I ask is because I see Roses Unlimited does sell it, from whom I would get it in preference to its budded maiden version. I do not want to go through the budded maiden conversion process simply because my mobility is declining, and dealing with the process is more strenuous than planting an own root gallon sized bush would be.
Moses.
Self awareness is severely lacking in humanity today.
Moses.
Thanks! I can’t take all the credit. Even fairy tales need a little artificial magic. 😉
Moses---Hot Princess own root will take at least 5 years to develop into a nice bush. I have 6 bush's of HP. 3 on fortuniana and 3 on multiflora. In 2 years' time you have a good bush on multiflora. 3 years, fully mature with dozens of blooms every bloom cycle. And it repeats fast. If you are getting up in years like me, 5 years is a long time to wait on a rose bush.