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I suppose it comes down to what you think it expensive and there are lots of German brands at different price points. I would add that the total cost of kitchen includes things that will be the same no matter which cabinets you choose such as the appliances and worktop.
Not long ago a friend installed a Leicht handleless kitchen for a total cost of £24,000. This price included £2k fitting, £4K worktops, £4k appliances. I think people feel that the major presence in kitchens such as Magnet or Wren will be cheaper than independent showrooms but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
In my opinion you can tell the difference in the quality between this and cheaper German brands like Schuller.
If you need to keep the budget down I think you go for price group one worktop, an entry level door, then choose a quality brand for the appliances but select a basic oven with fewer features. The kitchen will be the quality and look that you are after

Thanks Sheraton Interiors

Hi Jonathan

Thanks for your reply. I am probably not looking to spend £24k on my kitchen but I think I will end up spending about £3k on worktop ( Silestone/Quartz ) and additional for Neff appliances. Do you think spending more on cabinets and getting cheaper worktop and doors is better than spending a little more on worktop but spending less on cabinets and features inside cabinets etc as the fancy internal features all add up? I think I definitely want a pull out larder, not too fussed about the pull out corner unit.

Is Schuller a reasonably priced brand but good quality? I did have a look at Nobilia but I heard they are the equivalent of the high street brands in Germany. Do you know of any other German brands which I should consider - good quality, reasonable price?

We used Crown Imperial (Zeluso style I think) and have been impressed with quality. They are only available through independent kitchen stockists but seem to fairly widespread. Our supplier unfortunately was a nightmare but no fault of Crown. Definitely cost less than the quote mentioned and we did our utility as well in same units. Used Compac Quartz for worktops which we've also been happy with.

We have a Schueller true handleless kitchen. Very pleased with the quality of it. As it happens, the colour and the flat matt door I wanted was their lowest price door, so you may be surprised when you actually get the kitchen priced. Also, we were going to go for Neff appliances but our kitchen shop was able to supply Siemens for a lower price as they displayed more Siemens than Neff and therefore got and passed on a higher discount for that brand. When the kitchen was installed we got a massive pack with a barcode for every item of the kitchen. If we damage a door or something we will be able to go back and order a replacement, even if the style of kitchen is “discontinued”.

The only way to buy a BMW at Fiat price is to buy it second hand... There is a lot of choice this days like Used Kitchen exchange and similar.

Have you visited an up market German kitchen showroom yet ? It's a must. One of the REAL handleless kitchens is SEGMENTO by Poggenpohl. Once you have experienced the quality I'm sure it will be hard for you to actually say that let's say Magnet ,Crown or Leicht is as good. But again it all depends what quality you are will be happy with. And how long you are planning to stay in your current property.

I'm afraid there is no shortcuts on real quality.

How you spend your money is clearly up to you. I have a developer friend who always puts a quality worktop on top of cheap cabinets because for resale purposes he firmly believes that people only spend money on things they touch.
Choosing large cupboards as opposed to lots of drawers and pull outs will keep your cost down- deleting the larder pull out might save you up to £1000 depending on what has been specified.
Personally I think that for your own kitchen you will appreciate practicality and so I would spend more and have lots of wide drawers (in my opinion this is when handleless cabinets look the best) these are much easier to access. You can choose a great quality laminate work surface which will likely save £2000 over quartz but I would probably choose the cheapest quartz work surface you can match to the kitchen. I would have an inexpensive extractor fitted to the underside of wall cabinets, a gas hob is cheaper than induction. You have to integrate the fridge and dishwasher to continue the sleek contemporary feel but since they are hidden you don’t have to get matching manufacturers- get whatever bargains you can. Get a quality brand oven but perhaps with fewer features.
You can also put a lino on the floor saving £1000 over some of the luxury products.
Don’t forget that some things can be added later when the budget allows- you could add the wall units later for instance.
As far as which manufacturer goes it is really difficult to compare prices. I personally think the price of Hacker, Leicht and Schuller all overlap depending on what range you are looking at. You should find a finish you like first then see if you feel their quality is comparable- personally I think you can tell a difference.

Love that you have bought Leicht after my recommendation. Personally I would really like some of their doors and think that even their entry level kitchens look really expensive.
Let us know what you are going for.

There's no point in having something you don't really want so well done on splashing out. Enjoy your time in the kitchen. We seem to spend more and more time in there.

Call 020 3870 4399, you will not get the better quote for such a quality, you got my promise.

Catalogue: https://drive.google.com/file/d/12eRo3ptROeWWKeO5NKYp9EiDvhRgRBeM/view?usp=sharing

I am about to order a Pronorm part handleless (Y-Line) and part handled (Proline) kitchen. There will be 13 double units and 6 tall units for approx £10k. The price is more expensive that the Wrens and Magnets but it definitely (IMO) looks and feels noticeably nicer.

The cost of fitting is quoted to be £1870 (dry fit only). Plumbing and electrics will be done by my builder. Do you guys think this is reasonable/acceptable? I have no previous experience in this. If it takes a skilled kitchen fitter 3 full days to install the kitchen, that will be a rate of > £600 per day!?

Hello Billy, I didn't check out Pronorm kitchens but I'm sure you will have a lovely kitchen and £10k doesn't sound too bad. My Leicht kitchen ( furniture only ) is coming to £16k with price group 2 doors. Wall one 3.6m - tall cupboards plus top boxes all the way across. Wall two 4.7m - of base units and wall units. Wall three, approx 1.5m of tall units for appliances etc. Island 1.2m x 2.3m with pull out drawers etc. Obviously the cost of your kitchen will depend on what and how many features you have inside of your cupboards, the type of cupboards and price group of the doors you have. All the features add up and before you know it, that's another few thousand spent. I've tried to keep mine basic but tried to have one of each feature e.g. 1 Le mans corner pull out, 1 huge cutlery drawer, 1 tall cupboard with internal pull out drawers etc.

I think your fitter price is about right. Mine is charging £1.7k for dry fit, in another independent shop supplying another German brand, they were charging £1.8k. Yes if you work it out per day the rate seems very high and makes us think we should all become a kitchen fitter especially as the kitchen cupboards are already assembled!

To make you feel better about it, I would not think of it as the fitter getting £600 a day for a 3 day job, just think of it as money you have put aside to fit your kitchen regardless of how long it takes. Either way, regardless of who you get your kitchen with, I think it would cost at least £1.5k for a builder to do a dry fit a flat pack kitchen from Wickes, Howdens etc. Whatever you do, don't ask your builder to fit your Pronorm kitchen as they don't fit these kitchens day in day out. It's better to pay a little extra to use their own fitter as they fit these every day. Also if the fitter damaged any units whilst installing they usually get replaced at no cost ( but you may wish to check ), whereas if your builder damaged a unit during installation, you would have to pay for a replacement and then play the blame game with your builder ( who will probably deny the damage or I've heard stories where they have just chucked away the damaged part and said there were missing parts = added stress ).

For my project, I am also getting my worktops supplied and fitted by my kitchen company, I have been advised that sometimes worktop companies don't put worktops on properly or with care causing damages to your units e.g. on a kitchen island, they may drag the worktop across the cupboards to put it into place causing the cupbards underneath to move a little instead of lifting it up into the right location and placing it down . It might cost a bit more than sourcing your own worktop but I prefer not to take that risk.

Do you have any 3d plans/pics? Interested to see what it will look like.

I've just seen this article and well done for exploring your options. I hope you will enjoy your furniture for many years to come, sounds as though you are very happy.

For anyone else who is thinking of taking the plunge ...

We produce two fantastic lines of
furniture. With our high quality bespoke range we can design handle-less kitchens from a matt finish through to gloss ... and also for any room in the house.

Our Specialist Range has grown over many
years and now from a standard sized design, to part of the range
producing bespoke sized cabinets. The Specialist Range has a vast amount of designs,
which includes gloss, matt, wood grains, handle-less and shaker.

Hope you are all enjoying Houzz

All the best

Mark

Dual Designs

Hey kwg - I hope the kitchen will be good too. I like the ones in the showroom but you can never be 100% certain when it's a different colour/layout/worktops. The Pronorm furniture at £10k has far fewer units compared to your kitchen: Wall 1 is 4.2m (base drawers + wall units), Wall 2 is 3.6m (tall units) with a 2.4x1.0m island (units just on one side). The units are fairly basic - regular cupboards on wall units and price group 1 doors, although there are quite a few drawers. I'm thinking of potentially getting a 1.1 or 1.2m depth island instead (space is available) but the cost of the cladding/worksurface is already quite prohibitive.

It seems like your fitting cost is definitely more reasonable than mine, considering you have so many more units. But like you, I'm kinda stuck on this because I don't really want to risk having it fitted by my builder who may not know Pronorm products well. Unfortunately I am not very good at asking for discounts - it just gets awkward :( I'll definitely check with the kitchen company re free replacement of damaged units during installation though. Thanks for the tip! (I am still wishing I earn £600 a day!)

The kitchen company has also quoted for the worktops/backsplash/island cladding. I may have to check with some local fabricators to see if what the kitchen company has quoted is the right ball park figure. Unless there is big price difference, naturally I will go with the kitchen company, so that everything is supplied, fitted and managed by the kitchen company.

The design is pretty straightforward but hopefully the quality of it will make it feel a bit more special. How about yours? Any pictures of how your kitchen looks like? Are you pleased with the end product? The Leicht Kitchen website is pretty impressive.

Billy

Hello Billy,

Your kitchen size is not that much smaller than mine, looks almost similar size except I have wall units all across on the opposite wall too. Mine might actually be price group 1 not 2 actually. Perhaps you should also have a look at the other German kitchen brands too and see how they compare in terms of cost and quality. I was searching around for ages but then I chose the kitchen company/ shop that I wanted to work with.

My kitchen hasn't been installed yet but it's ordered. I'm just going for white kitchen with a marble effect quartz worktop. The kitchen will be north facing so I think a white kitchen will just brighten it up. The rest of furniture / decor is not what is shown in the picture, the designer added that in to provide a complete picture but I must admit, it does look quite good:-).

Quite good? I think it looks amazing! The whole space looks really good.

I don't think I'll be checking out other German kitchens. Aside from the price of the worksurface, I'm pretty happy with this kitchen brand/combi/design/layout. The kitchen company is really pushing for me to put a deposit down.

Are you going for Siemens appliances? They are in your kitchen artist impression (that looks VERY realistic!). I'll be going for them as they are good value for money when compared to Miele LOL My only worry is that I think the current models have been released for a few years now so there is a risk that new models will be out very soon.

So what sort of project are you working on and at what stage are you at? I am getting an extension built + refurbishing the house (in Kent).

Hi Billy

We design custom-made kitchens as part of most of our refurbishment work.

Many of the well-known kitchen companies use gears from Blum or Grass and that is who we source them from. There are a lot of kitchen companies out there and German doesn't mean better - that's just marketing over the years. Bulthaup for example pioneered the self-closing drawer mechanism but its so common place now most people can do it.

We work from scratch, specifying all the finishes, gears etc and use a joinery workshop to build the kitchen or a combination of carcass suppliers, door suppliers etc. It works out being much cheaper. Of course we usually do this as part of our full architectural services and you're not paying for a brand name.

Please do get in touch even if you want to have a quick chat. I will send you a separate email in the meanwhile. You can look on our website for examples of kitchens procured in this way. www.fcarchitects.co.uk

Kind regards

Peter

Most kitchen companies can supply a range of doors that can be used for true handle-less kitchens to a similar specification to a German kitchen. PWS offer a range of true handle-less door. Much of the decision depends upon the type of door you would like. For example if you would like an acrylic door then Phoenix of Zurfiz doors can be used. True handle-less is slightly more expensive as you need the rail system and also fitting is slightly more complex. German brands can have a premium cost attached but will always work beautifully (although Britain is catching up!).

See below example of true handle-less Zurfiz acrylic door kitchen

HI Kwg kwg, where are you based. We offer a great range of product and variety to create the style people are after at varied budgets.

Hello Billy, thanks for your kind comments! Yes it does look amazing :-).

Yes, I'm having all Siemens appliances, the kitchen shop gets a good deal on that brand so I thought I'd go for it, otherwise I would probably have gone for Bosch or Neff if sourcing appliances myself. Miele would have been out of my budget. The ovens you see are 1 Siemens self cleaning combination microwave/oven and 1 combination full steam/oven. I think some new models are out already and if they are out, it means you can get the older model for a cheaper price, which is great unless there is a must have function in the new model you can't do without and the current Siemens ovens do look good anyway.

If you've already decided on the brand, design and the shop, you can still ask for a discount, in fact most of the independent shops I went to did offer some discount when I asked ( not much discount but better than nothing ).

Yes, having an extension built ( approx. 5.5m x3m ) with pitched roof, 3 velux and sliding doors ( as in picture ), the shell has been built, steels in etc now waiting for 1st fix for electrician.

Btw, I don't mean to be nosey into your kitchen design but do you really need 4 ovens? I know we always see them in glossy magazines/photos and it does look good, I also wanted 4 ovens too for the look but then decided it was pointless if I didn't need to use 4 ovens and you would save some money too.

On your island ( if you have space ), you could consider an overhang of the worktop on the opposite side of the sink so people could sit there, as I've heard from people with islands that when guests come over, everyone hangs around the island and those that don't have an overhang wish they did. You can chat with your guests whilst cooking/ preparing. If you have older kids and want to get them involved, they can sit on that side and perhaps help prepare too :-). That's my vision for my kitchen anyway :-).

Hi Kwg and Billy

just a note for you guys about installation costs, i used to install for Magnet and i only got about 45% of the money the customer would pay the shop, Magnet would get about 38% and of course the VAT would go to the HMRC so your fitter isn't on anything like £600/day. if you want to save money look for an installer who is registered on the ikbbi website, all work is guarenteed 2 yrs, stringent checks on their work and most fitters aren't vat registered. when you work for a shop you're always under pressure to move onto the next job so attention to detail isn't as high.

regarding your worktops, i'd get a local supplier for these as it would be cheaper, quicker and if there's any problems you can hold the money back. if your cabinets are decent, strong units and they've been fixed properly they shouldn't move about when the tops are fitted.

i'd also suggest that you check your delivery over as soon as it arrives if practical, then no one can play the blame game if anything suddenly appears damaged and the supplier has more time to get the replacement parts ordered for you.

also i agree with FC Architects and Burgess Kitchens, i really can't see anything special about 'german kitchens' thats different to a kitchen made in this country (i don't include your wren, magnet, howdens and sheds etc), if you like the door more than from another company thats fine but for the rest of the cabinet its still the same as lots of other cabinets made in the UK, the components are the same ie Blum drawers, Blum hinges (or Hettich, Grass etc), the board its made from is the same ie Egger and at the end of the day the door is probably Italian anyway (or painted in Italy like many doors are for UK companies).

Hey kwg - it looks like we are going through a similar build process, although mine is perhaps a little behind comparatively. Extension with flat roof, initially with skylights but soon removed from plans for cost saving purposes. The shell is probably 80% finished (need to head to the site later to check what had been done over the week), steels are also in but the roof for the extension is nowhere to be seen yet. They are currently re-roofing the existing house. New windows and doors for the existing house are in. Next will be site visits from both the kitchen and sliding door companies. The architect is busy liaising with the latter. It's all go!

Re the 4 ovens. Well. If it was down to me, it'll be oven, steam oven + stand alone microwave. My partner wants an integrated coffee machine (which may mean sacrificing victorian tiled floors in another room and/or the front door passage, boo!), so we have ended up with an integrated microwave too, to balance the layout.

We decided not to have an overhang for the island and to clad it instead as the dining table is right in front of the island, so guests can just park themselves there (not that we have guests often). Plus, it is nice to have the pattern of the worksurface cladded around the island (like the ones in the glossy magazines, ha!).

Have you started looking into dining room furniture yet? I wouldn't mind some pointers in this department if you have any ideas. Whereabouts (geographically) is your project?

Hey Billy, I noticed that you wanted a dining set to sit next to your German kitchen, in our opinion Italians do this well. This is on display in our Harrogate showroom and we feel it sits well against German kitchens, please give our showroom a call if you wish to know more.

Daniel from Townhouse Design

Lifestyle Kitchens - thank you for your thorough explanation. It is very insightful and helps me understand why projects like this can be so expensive! We've now agreed on a price with the kitchen company that both parties seem to be happy with, and hopefully fair for all.

Our chosen worktop is a little dear (Ceralsio - for a coverage of 13sqm), so will look into this a little more to see if there may be alternatives that we can save on. Someone recommended a kitchen worksurface supplier in Enfield, so that will be a starting point for the investigation.

We've also confirmed with the kitchen company (after kwg's advice) that they will be responsible for any damages occurring during the installation process.

Good to read you have come to an agreement.

Do keep us posted. Particularly with the result! :)

Can I ask you Burgess Kitchens Ltd, do you know what material (walnut?) the worktop is in your acrylic doors kitchen photo?

E D. I used an image from BA Components for the Zurfiz acrylic door rather than one of our own installations. Unfortunately they do not specify the wood type, but to me it looks more oak than walnut.