Help! We need floor plan advice for our family home

5 years ago

last modified: 5 years ago

Need to change the layout of our house, which will hopefully last us for 10 years till the kids are teenagers. 4 kids, 2 sharing each bedroom.

Current vs Proposed - after any advice re things we may need to take into account or other options missed.

Current highlights:

add Bed 4 Multipurpose room - may be a study, spare bedroom, media room, kids play room - don't know yet.

Is living room big enough at 5m x 4m?

Relocating kitchen from rear of property to centre of house - to improve flow. Supervise children at the backyard.

Can't decide whether to knock down fireplaces to re-gain extra floorspace. House is 115m2 internal on 220m2 block.

CLICK LINK to see high res image where you can read better: https://i.imgur.com/1kk4n4q.jpg

Featured Answer

oklouise

5 years ago

before responding to all your specific question i am reminded of your budget and suggest that you're attempting far too much and need to reduce or eliminate all the non essential ideas and and start making a list of the real cost of every item you're considering including the architect and engineer, (eg last time we considered a 3m stacker door it was about $5000) ..many of your ideas are excellent for a much bigger budget but not suitable for this reno...modest sized rooms in a vintage cottage need less complex changes and you should never decide to remove a chimney until you know exactly what will fit in the new space (after the roof, walls, floor and ceiling have collapsed) ....you can have king sized beds but something else may need to be left out..easiest way to be sure is to measure out the size in the rooms..king sized bed is 183 x 203, king singles are 107 x 203 plus bedding all around and my long winded opinions in response to your questions:

1. "glass French doors on either side of the MPR?"...where? what size, how much? why?

2. leaving the MPR open makes the room more spacious and flexible for no cost....YES

3. need super sized storage...what needs storing?...cheapest option is to reduce what needs storing or use storage under beds, ceiling height wall to wall wardrobes, storage loft in the roof and all the narrow rectangles in my plans are freestanding flat pac bookshelves with or without doors for pantry, living and dining area storage (eg IKEA Billy)

4. 3-4m wide stacker doors are not suitable to the scale and style of the room, the ceiling may be too low to allow for the big beam to support the wider opening, the doors will rarely be fully open, provide less ventilation than windows, interfere with furniture placement and cost too much of your budget..and how many other windows and doors need to be replaced and there's already a sliding door out to the patio

5. removing the whole dividing wall (replacing the ceiling or adding a beam to further lower the ceiling may look nice but is outside the budget if not essential

6. the wall between the sliding doors and the laundry door is 1200 wide...more than big enough for a TV suitable for the small distance from the furniture (and only suitable/available wall)

7, Both fireplaces have to go??where is the other one and why remove them?

8. imo i have already suggested a good kitchen arrangement and the room is not wide enough to have an island with sink...the island in my plan is only 1200 x 60 (preferably a frestanding island trolley and taking out the chimney would not help

9. a splashback window is OK as long as the other window opens ...but you already have a small window...cost?

10. keep the original floors and celebrate the history of the house wherever possible

11. the laundry can't be made smaller and is only just big enough for the washer and sink and a cupboard laundry will not provide any extra floorspace and the door through the laundry allows for access to the toilet from inside and out without having a bathroom door off the kitchen/living

12. built in bath can fill teh maximum space and have a seat/ledge all around and is easier to add a screen or shower curtain..

13. moving the doors in the kids' rooms is to make enough space for the wardobes, beds and the children to have room to stand and dress...recycling the original doors and jambs in standard stud wall should be reasonably straightforward and remember the whole wall between master and bedroom has to be rebuilt for the back to back biw

all these proposed changes and compromises reinforces my suggestion (and other's) about an extension as mentioned in my first comment but, if the extension is not an option, i would forget about many of the extras you would like to have and focus on doing the best reno for now and think about moving when you need more space

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Comments (33)

Sara Graham
5 years ago
I’m no expert but a few things to consider:
You need a minimum of 900mm between the kitchen benches, preferably 1200.
But the island could be reduced to 900mm in depth rather than 1200mm
As your kids grow older you may prefer not to have any adjoining walls between the master bedroom and your kids rooms, unless you have double brick walls or some other way of creating acoustic privacy.
Can the door to the back on the right be replaced by a sliding door? The swing into the room takes up a lot of space.
Most fridges are at least 750mm deep, though some are only 600mm deep (but usually very expensive and have a small capacity for a family). They also need a space for ventilation at the back. This will protrude significantly into your wet area space (bathroom/laundry etc)
Do the fireplaces have any heritage value? Will removing them impact the the feeling and integrity of the house? Space is tight so I can see why removing them is attractive.

Others will have some helpful ideas. All the best with your reno.
dammit_au thanked Sara Graham
oklouise
5 years ago
by the time all the plumbing is rearranged you may find that it can be cost effective to build a new wider space to replace the wet areas but the dimensions are inconsistent.. eg if it's 3.2 m from the south side of the old kitchen to the boundary does that mean the master bedroom is only 2m wide or the bedrooms are on the boundary or?? please confirm the dimensions for each room and what re all the floors, walls and floors built out of?
dammit_au thanked oklouise
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It looks pretty good. I would consider giving some thought to improving, if possible, the "look and feel" of the entry/hallway. At the moment, when you enter through the front door you will just be looking into an almost never-ending hallway that either ends in a closed door to the rumpus or if that door is open, a glimpse of a wall in the rumpus. I'm not sure what can be done without opening up the kitchen/dining/family/rumpus room as an open plan space, although I presume that was deliberately avoided for heating/cooling or noise/privacy reasons. Is there any scope to increase the ceiling height in the hallway? Or any area not covered by the upstairs floor for a skylight? Or could you have a double-height area around the stairwell perhaps? I would ensure that you have good sound insulation between the guest bathroom and the pantry/dining area. I would also consider whether the size of the kitchen is sufficient for your needs. It looks disproportionately small when compared to the size of the family and rumpus rooms. That's fine if you don't spend much time in the kitchen, either when cooking or entertaining, but it might be something you want to reconsider. I'd also consider swapping the location of the pantry door and fridge space. With the fridge door open, the immediate access to the kitchen would be blocked. That could turn out to be an annoying aspect in the future if you live with someone who likes to peruse the contents of the fridge at their leisure. Also, you may want to give some thought as to how you will use the family room and how you intend to furnish it. I'm not sure if you plan to have a TV in that space, but if so, unless the sofa is positioned far away from the TV, you could end up with some dead space at either end. Unless that space would be used for a study area. Or maybe a reading area. If you're planning on using the rumpus as a home theatre, then you may want to think about cutting back on the number of windows and doors if you like watching movies in a truly dark room. That's only if you're a pretty serious viewer! The alfresco looks somewhat long and narrow. Again, I would give some thought as to how you want to use and furnish that space. If you're just planning on having a long table with bench seating, I think it would be fine. But, if you wanted a nice outdoor lounge, you may have trouble finding one (although there are plenty of modular options). Good luck!
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I'd say it's an easy min. $250K minimum flagfall on a relatively basic/not fancy spec/fit-out in a super good package deal. You're essentially renovating an entire house including moving plumbing, walls replastering, new floors throughout etc....not to mention lights, rewiring etc etc, it goes on and on.......This scope would still cost a builder themselves $150K, not factoring in their own time/labour, paying cash for sub-trades and getting super deals on all materials....and then you could only really potentially roll this type of operation out if you actually have the money in the bank. If you need to borrow then you'd need a building contract which then brings in market rates, profit margins and GST. Take profit and GST out from $150K and there's barely enough left to cover materials alone, when the labour/materials ratio (of a construction cost) these days, particular for renovations is labour being the most significant cost involved.............you can fine tune and perfect a floor plan like you have (which I reckon is pretty good as a plan), but when push comes to shove it always comes back to budget and costs, which is why we always are encouraging people to utilise design professionals who manage the challenge of designing within budget limits. If you separate budget/costs from the design process (rather than integrate it) more often than not it will leads to disappointment and misalignment of your expectations of what is realistic.
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I would be looking carefully at your bathroom and powder room arrangements, especially with the shower and water splash distances. I can't see any shower screens to either shower? As it is drawn I hope you like mopping floors after every shower. For a family home there will be privacy issues when someone needs to access the laundry, while another family member is having a shower. I would separate the laundry and family bathroom into two distinct rooms as the current design is a compromise. With space so tight the second shower in the powder room seems excessive, and it is so small it is not very functional. You need to think carefully about the freestanding bath, the space it takes up, and the cleaning around it. A more traditional bath hob will give you fewer compromises in other areas as it will take up less space. Have you considered flyscreening with your bi-fold doors to the rear? Have you considered how you are going to furnish the living room? There is lots more, no doubt other Houzzers will pick up on. If you want a proper, detailed design/review or chat feel free to contact me. Best of luck, Dr Retro of Dr Retro House Calls
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dammit_au
Original Author
5 years ago

oklouise: sorry, the floorplan is to scale but the yard/boundaries I just randomly drew so they are a bit out of whack. (however I took the measurements from a satellite photo). I don't want to extend the roofline/make an expansion to the house at all (the backyard is already very small).

The total budget for this reno was hoping for around the $50k mark (yes I am dreaming - as the scope is getting bigger and bigger) - however I can do a lot of the work myself with kitchen/bathrooms to save $. But extending the roofline/house would blow the budget completely. The current wet area is 2.1m by 5.3m (if you click the Imgur link you can zoom in to see the measurements). The master bedroom is 3.4m wide (and 4.4m long).

All floors are suspended on brick piers, floor boards, except the north side is inaccessible due to height restriction (underneath house is maybe 10cm above dirt level to the north), the south the subfloor is accessible; with the exception of the wet area which is a lower slab (22cm lower than the main house floor level) so there is a step down into it. There are two raked ceilings. The main ceiling height is 2.74m. The ceiling slopes from the rear room which is currently the kitchen, to the rear of the property (2.4m down to 2.2m), the wet area ceiling slopes from north to south (2.6m to 2.28m).

The walls are all timber VJ board internal and weatherboard timber external. Roof is colorbond.
dammit_au
Original Author
5 years ago
genkii - good point re the kitchen dimensions; The island bench can go further to the rear, to create 1m+ width. I wanted to go 1.2m depth in the island so it could fit 2x standard cupboard depth's back to back for storage on both sides. It will just mean the living area is smaller. I was more concerned about the 60cm gap between the kitchen bench and the fireplace would be dead space and wreck the flow of everything which is why I am leaning towards removing the fireplace unless there is another option.

It would be nice having a master not adjoining but I don't really see any other low-cost option. I guess I could soundproof the wall? I plan to demolish that wardrobe in Kid Bed 2 as it is broken and huge. Maybe I can put BIR's on each side of the adjoining wall between Main Bed and Kid Bed 2 to reduce the noise?

RE Fridge; another good point. Allowing 750mm + 100mm wall would make 850mm lost space in the wet area. That decreases the width from 2.1m to 1.25m. I guess I could create an ensuite like this: http://starcraftcustombuilders.com/images/Bath/BathNarrow.jpg 1.25m by 2.5m (not sure if this is too tight) [the width would open up from 1.25m to wider after the fridge depth was cleared] - maybe the pantry needs to incorporate out into the cabinetry rather than? It would then leave 2.8m by 2.1m for the remaining bathroom & laundry. Alternatively; the fridge could go along the wall adjoining the new Bed 4 if space needs to be protected in the 'wet area' to enable big enough bathroom; ensuite and laundry.

Fireplaces heritage value - sure they do look nice, and add to the character of the house; (they will also be a pain to remove as the ceiling needs to be matched VJ boards) and floor repaired etc...but to me every m2 counts, and space is already so tight...so I think demolishing them is the only option?
PRO
3DA Design Drafting and 3D Visuals
5 years ago
Any photos of the rear? Room is a bit tight but I think is doable. I'm more concerned about the budget, though. I think doing this in stages is the way to go.
dammit_au thanked 3DA Design Drafting and 3D Visuals
dammit_au
Original Author
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
Some photos:

https://i.imgur.com/q1sd1PI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/B47DLQW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZqXh7ss.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bITUOGU.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GFSRI7W.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MqHnHTD.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/SDYUq23.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/tL9qXdL.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/8UMp8z5.jpg
dammit_au
Original Author
5 years ago

Here are two more options

Below ALT B - this below shows slightly different configuration making Bed 4 smaller (demolishing the dividing wall and building it again 90cm towards the front of the house. It also has a partially recessed Fridge & pantry rather than fully recessed. The main bedroom/Bed 3 dividing wall has been altered to suit a WIR.

The below is a completely different option (ALT C). Kitchen remaining at rear of property.
PRO
3DA Design Drafting and 3D Visuals
5 years ago
I think making the kitchen at the back is ideal.
Make it a line kitchen with island rather than a U shaped. That way you can still have the sliding stacker door that you wanted. See below for inspirations. You can extend the cabinetry all the way to living area to steal some space for much required storage.

If you are not into islands, consider using a nice dining table as island.

The key is to open up and tuck almost everything to the wall cabinets. make it very simplistic pallette. hide everything. and you will feel the space is doubled.

Your current house flooring is very nice already. I will try to minimise removing walls.

Why not try an L shaped sliding stacker glass frame for the multi use bed 4? It looks good, and works on track, you can fully open or close or even half close the room as required.
Combine it with curtains for privacy, it will look good for your house.

Its like attached.
Have a look at my simple sketch
Tusculum Residence · More Info

Tusculum Residence · More Info
dammit_au thanked 3DA Design Drafting and 3D Visuals
dammit_au
Original Author
5 years ago
Interesting alternative 3DA Design Drafting and 3D Visuals, thanks for posting ! It's great to hear options I otherwise wouldn't have thought of.

I really do like kitchen islands. Your concept is thought provoking, has a lot of bonuses of not relocating kitchen services; but I am not sure if it would work in terms of creating enough living space? I feel like there would be quite a bit of dead space to the right of the kitchen if it was in this format? As the space is 4.2m wide and allowing 600mm for cabinets, 1m gap between bench and island; then 1.2m deep island; leaves 1.4m on the other side for accessing bar stools and walking past to get to the yard; plus then it's going to be hard to visual the backyard from the living room if watching TV (something we seem to rarely do anyway!). I'm not sure what its like working in a very long kitchen as opposed to one where everything is a bit more in reach?

Also under this option there doesn't really seem to be room for a dining table if the island bench is there.

TV could be wallmounted to the brick chimney though.

RE budget/doing in stages - not really an option ...basically my goal is to keep costs as low as possible (hence doing a lot of work myself) but equally I want to create a home that is relaxing working in harmony with our family and 4 kids...and not stressful (e.g. need to set us up for success, not lack storage and have mess everywhere all the time and constant issues!). So if it ends up costing more than 50k (which I imagine it will if I am demolishing fireplaces and the like), so be it...but will just use every effort to keep costs to as low as possible.

Flooring - I also was at odds with this. I really like the flooring in the property even though it is a bit mix-matched, there currently is different floorboards in Kitchen, Living, Dining and Main Bed (pine), but it does seem to work well and you don't really notice. However if moving kitchen to different position, I imagine the floor will be cut significantly, same for demolishing walls; so was thinking of just rough patching the floor and then laying floating floorboards over the top of the current floor throughout the property. Interested to hear thoughts?

Adapted the floor plan a bit to play around with your option; Option D " 3DA Design Drafting and 3D Visuals's suggestion":
PRO
3DA Design Drafting and 3D Visuals
5 years ago
Try opening that slider wall of bed 4 and you have a big adaptable space.

If space is tight. 900mm between bench is ok too.
I have 1m space and its quite generous for me.
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PRO
3DA Design Drafting and 3D Visuals
5 years ago
How about making it an Island and Dining connected? Its quite a good combo although you will need to compromise not having a big island.

Alternatively you can turn the corner for extra kitchen bench.

That door leading to outside need to be replaced by a slider or swing it outside
dammit_au thanked 3DA Design Drafting and 3D Visuals
oklouise
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
with limited space and budget my suggestion is to avoid any major demolitions that can spoil the proportions of the building and involve expensive and labour intensive handyman repairs and horrible surprises...consider installing the stove in the old chimney, create a wide doorway (without removing the whole wall) between kitchen and family) build back to back biw between master and bed 2, omit the dividing wall for the MPR in favour of a more spacious room...there's a free standing kitchen island and full sized dining table with free standing bookshelf sized storage cabinets (IKEA Billy?) for pantry and other storage (note placement of all doorways to create narrow spaces for cabinets (including behind external laundry door) and adding a door between MPR and front entry would improve zoning... careful choice of bathroom fixtures should allow for a double shower but there is only enough space for shower over generous built in bath and access through the laundry improves separation between kitchen and bathroom .. wide mirror doored wall cabinets for toiletries and door only vanity provides towel storage and extra linen can be stored in the biw or freestanding cabinets and sliding door at the back uses much less space than French doors
dammit_au thanked oklouise
PRO
3DA Design Drafting and 3D Visuals
5 years ago
I've been looking again at all the suggested options. I think the best solution is to expand to the right of the wet area.
All options sacrifices space for functionality. And although it fits, its crampy.

With the expansion of the wet area, you can tuck in a long kitchen there, and it will have an open space feel to it.

Maybe something you could really consider carefully.
dammit_au thanked 3DA Design Drafting and 3D Visuals
dammit_au
Original Author
5 years ago
3DA : I would love to expand; but have completely ruled this option out as a no - it will blow the budget completely :( I agree it is tight but need to work with what I've got unfortunately
PRO
3DA Design Drafting and 3D Visuals
5 years ago
Understood.
The reason I am suggesting that is because once you refurb the inside. You can't expand anymore. The wet area will be costly to relocate again.
dammit_au thanked 3DA Design Drafting and 3D Visuals
dammit_au
Original Author
5 years ago
Yup...well the bathrooms are not going to be A-class pristine fittings/fixtures anyway unfortunately, it will be $5/m2 600x300 tiles style so a bit rough and ready; clean and nice but not exquisite. A lot of the work will be done by self/friend who is skilled with waterproofing/handyman style bathroom work (tiles/showers etc fine but again not a true qualified professional) so will have to live with that to achieve budget.

One problem with the bathroom is that there is a 22cm step down into the entire wet area from the house. This is because it is a tacked-on extension with a sloped roof/ceiling. It is on a slab and main house suspended floorboards. The ceiling height is 2.62cm on one side and 2.28cm on the other.

1. should I rectify the floor height to match the house exactly? It will mean that the ceiling height becomes 2.4m sloping down to 2.06m respectively; (average bca minimum is 2.1m over 50% of the area if I am correct)? - still need to work out how to calculate this to check it complies based on wet area size of 5.3m by 2.1m.

2. Or do I build it up so it is -10cm drop from main house, meaning the ceiling height would be 2.5m and 2.16m?

3. finally; do I just leave it as -22cm drop.

See photo below - LINK: HIGH RES https://i.imgur.com/HK366j4.jpg

One idea I have is if future expansion in 10+years; I suspect it may be knockdown rebuild, or, will go a second storey above the rear 2/3rd's of the dwelling (the street facade can't be changed easily under planning permissions). As a result, a stairway would go in the MPR / 4th bedroom location (which is central) and would mean that the kitchen does not get affected. The bathroom & laundry could then be combined to be a larger laundry/powder room and a proper bathroom could be installed upstairs with further bedrooms (depending what actually goes up there)? Just brainstorming.
dammit_au
Original Author
5 years ago
Sorry long reply ! Lots going through my head!

oklouise: thank you so much for drafting that plan up ! I went and met an architect, and her comments were basically that your plan is amazing (thank you so much ) and she'd be working off that and doing minor tweaks.

She suggested glass french doors both side of the MPR entries. My other half really likes that the MPR is not closed in and very adaptable (I prefer it closed in still but will live without it) - however I think it needs some super big storage.

Couple of other changes; that rear lounge would delete as 4 x stacker sliding doors would go there (probably 3.6M wide) - also the measurement of the width of the entire length of house along the kitchen/lounge etc is 4.2m wall to wall (rather than 4.3 on your plan). The ceiling there is 2.2m so those doors will need to be no more than 2.1m high.

That wall you marked as wide doorway and retain, really has got to go in my opinion; I will ask the engineer how much of it can be demolished without it needing the full-blown beam etc as it might save $. however it used to be the external wall of the house so it is quite structural. Where the beam will go, after it the ceiling drops to 2.4m and then rakes down to 2.2m.

Photo of beam design:

Photo of ceiling raked

In your opinion if that rear wall was completely gone, would the lounge room still be defined within that space (3mx4.2m); or by keeping it as a doorway is it limiting the lounge room size more than it otherwise would be ? (If regardless of wall gone or doorway the lounge is still confined in same area, then it may be very worth pursuing keeping it and widen as much as possible without costly beam install). Right now my gut feel is to knock it down completely and install the beam and be done with it.

Can a king bed fit into the main bedroom? and 2 x king singles in each kids room?

I'm not 100% convinced about a TV fitting on that wall near the rear glass door, and also that design means that doorway to laundry has to be moved. Is there any other way? To be honest we don't watch a huge amount of tv. Or, do we put the TV on the north wall where nothing is going on (except the south side is very busy to block with a lounge)... Photo of idea:

Fireplaces both definitely need to go (decision made), so kitchen can be bigger and fridge could be down this side if needed. Still really keen on sink being inside island. Don't quite know how much spacing I can get between island and other bench, or how big I can make it (still thinking 1.2m but 600 cupboards ,300 cupboards rear and 300mm overhang. I was thinking 1m between bench and island ?

To left of dining table - that is a window between the fireplace and the wall being knocked down (90cm wide).

The window on the other side of the fireplace is basically blocked up by the kitchen. it can't stay because it is only 67cm high. I am contemplating removing it completely and getting a see through fixed glass splashback to run along there and have a vertical garden outside to look at. Thoughts? I am not sure where the oven /fridge etc is going to go...

Would you be pushing to retain the existing flooring? There is different flooring in main bedroom (Pine style), main house looking at the current plan the dining has different direction flooring to the living, and then kitchen also different again. Once opening up those big rooms there will be 3 noticable differing floors. I think though despite lots of gaps, creaks, and work to be done when fireplace removed (plus floor cut to install services to new kitchen location); it is worth trying to keep the existing floors and not re-do them in floating floor ??

Should I make the main bathroom or ensuite bigger by decreasing the laundry size (we can sort of make do with a "cupboard" style laundry rather than a dedicated room. For the shower over bath, do you recommend freestanding or built in?

I think Kids Bed 1 and 2 have doors moved. Is this a costly/hard job or not really? I think I will be buying pre-fab VJ board sheets but then they may not match perfectly

Outside through the large stacker doors will be artificial grass. There will be an undercover deck (13m2 and > 3m roof) to the south of this in the bit that gets the most natural light.
dammit_au
Original Author
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
Completely understand...are you thinking I can achieve roughly what I set out to on 100k if that was the budget as opposed to 50k? I am re-calculating some financials to see exactly how far I can increase the budget (if at all); and also reviewing scope of works to see what I can eliminate. I will individually try to cost everything. Below is some brainstorming I have done today:

1.glass french doors on each side of MPR - yes not essential, that can be scrapped; can put standard doors in later if needed.

3.christmas trees, vacuum cleaners, linen, towels, kids toys, board games, tennis racquets, camping equipment etc - again for now, delete. what doesn't fit in wardrobes or linen can go in garden shed or off-site.

4 & 5 Rear stacker door. I think current window is about 2400 wide. Wall to wall it is 4200 and I estimate 900 each side of window. Should I demolish window and replace with standard sliding door 2400? If I go the wider stacker door I am guessing it also needs engineer approval/review as I would be demolishing part of external wall and replacing with aluminium frame/glass... This may be a way to keep cost down?ASD100-2124-2 Sliding Door 2095H x 2410W = $700 inc gst + estimate $1000 to install so $1700 supply+install. +$800 for sliding screen. Total cost $2500.

Demolishing rear lounge wall - maybe this is an option to keep for now, have the lounge room inside the rear 3m x 4.2m room; and in years to come demolish it? I will speak to engineer about whether it can be widened at all without need for a beam and if not maybe it can potentially stay as-is? The ceiling height in that room being 2.4m then -240mm for a beam will lower it to 2.16m where the beam is; is that really low for an arch/beam (plus few extra cm of plaster around it). Although 2.16m is higher than a standard door height?Yes already a hinged french glass door to external (on the side), approx 1m wide. I asked my other half about deleting the sliding doors completely and just keeping the window but her reply is the kids likely to use the yard more if there is a big door often open. (?).Decision to make: keep windows as-is; or spend $2500 on 2.4m wide sliding door set up.

6 correct, my current 50" tv is 111cm wide.

here is where it would go (where the open door is on the right which would be filled in and wall built:

7 Fireplaces: the fireplace in the front bedroom has already had the chimney above the ceiling removed so the fireplace serves no real purpose and is for look only. It takes up 1400mm by 600mm. It may be possible to keep it if this measurement between the chimney and eastern wall is 2100mm (it is VERY close to that, but I need to confirm when access is granted); so I could potentially fit 2x king singles like this:

However, with the fireplace in situ, it is not possible to have any decent amount of wardrobe space.'

8.really want an island with a sink, and wide enough to do kids homework Would still eventually plan to demolish that wall when funds permit. Can sacrifice to be 600cupboards,300 overhang so 900wide? some kids can sit at island and others at dining table for homework time while dinner is being prepared.

9 - by moving that wall detailed in below plan, the wall to west of fireplace (900x1300H) can remain. One problem is bench is 900 high but the window is only 670 above ground so it needs to be changed to a smaller one? scrap the splashback window to save $

.10 agree on keeping floors and repairing.

11 you have the laundry at 1800 long, if I allow 900 for washing machine width and 600 for tub, can I get it down to 1500 and make the bathroom bigger? Or there is no need because the main bathroom being 1800 allows a bath to perfectly fit? Just confirming you think this split of ensuite/bath/laundry that you have already mocked up is the ideal size for each room working off the fixed dimensions of the wet area as present 5.3x2.1 and shuffling any walls isn't going to achieve anything better?

12 great idea- built in bath it is,,!

13 can possibly keep Kids Bed 1 door where it is if going by plan in #7... Kids bed 2 can stay as is if door opens straight onto BIR side; (BIR just becomes 900 less length to allow for the door opening). and Main Bed hopefully the width between existing door and Kids Bed 2 wall is exactly 600 or close to; why does the wall between Main bed and Kids Bed 2 need re-building ? Can't the back to back BIRs just utilise the existing wall as their rear?
Here is a new option:
- rear wall remains so no engineer/demolition
- 2.4m sliding door replaces window. chaise lounge goes in front of the fixed part, door can still open and be used.
- Chaise is 3m by 2m.
- the wall between MPR and kitchen is demolished and a new wall is built 900mm closer to front of house.
- Kitchen is 600 bench, 3m long by 2.1m wide; going flush to fireplace which remains. Island is 1600x900 and has 800 gap between it and the bench/fireplace. (is this kitchen large enough to fit fridge/pantry)?
- 6 seater dining table has 900 clearance around chairs and 1000 clearance to island to allow for bar stools. Only one issue is one seat is obstructed by fireplace (kid can sit at that seat)!
Money saved: no fireplaces demolished, no engineer for rear wall, no stacker door/engineer. Thoughts ?
oklouise
5 years ago
reduce the laundry and the doors wont open ...if you don't move the doors in the bedrooms you lose the space for the full width biw in all three bedrooms...if you must have a big island leave the kitchen and rear window where they are and if you have some more money don't waste any trying to patch up the existing bathroom...demolish and start again for a better result with flootr, walls and roof but i have to say again that the dimensions are inconsistent and don't allow for the thickness of walls and any architect or designer should make an accurate plan of exactly what's already there including a site plan before making any serious suggestions and i think you need to think long term about if an upstairs is a viable option and plan the reno in stages so that you only build downstairs what wont need to be changed...could be worthwhile to obtain quotes for second storey additions so that you have a better idea of what's involved
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siriuskey
5 years ago
This iswhat I would do, the fireplace in the front bedroom is a waste of space with the chimney missing what a shame, so I would remove it, is the other fire place in the same condition.

I would keep the kitchen where it is, it will not only save money but because the ceiling is lowest over the sink, this can be opened up to an alfresco pergola area.

The load bearing wall isn't difficult to fix and will open up the small spaces combining a kitchen with large 900 deep bench, large dining table and then lounge, I would love to see doors both sides of the fireplace giving access to future terrace with pergola. I have shown the walls that needed to be removed, I've also made entrance into the master bed part of the entrance foyer for privacy and quietness from family living.
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dammit_au
Original Author
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
Really appreciate your reply, plan and time taken to draw this up !

living room fireplace still technically work (as the chimney is there and intact), never tried it...plus it is an open fireplace more decorative than anything...

The current kitchen is very old and worn, it needs replacing. I felt like it's a waste of money to replace it in its current position (although the simplest option), because then I would want to move it in a few years anyway?

My main issue is having 4 kids, I want them outside playing a lot...and I feel it would be nice if adults can be sitting on lounge watching TV (and occasional eye outside); and kids can run in and out of the house more. If it went from Kitchen -> outdoors, I feel it wouldn't flow as well?

My initial thoughts - outdoor space marked as BBQ/alfresco I was reserving for kids play area (backyard is very small). I was going to make the deck 13m2 here to the south side whih gets most light and then leaves a sizable yard for the kids:

Also substantial living/dining areas which is great, but then I lose that Bed 4/multi-purpose room which brings me back to my initial challenge of if needing a relative to stay over, or a nanny/au paire,,, I have no where to put them. Also the main bed is smaller if the ensuite takes up part of its roofline and there are different floor/ceiling levels between the main bed and wet areas (the wet area was tacked on as an extension with a flat roof). Interesting layout of Kid bed 1 with beds back to back, works well with that fireplace gone and opens the room up a lot !.
siriuskey
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
The alfresco is only a name, alfresco/kids play. I think you have to accept that it is what it is ,a lovely small house and not a 4 bedroom, with your small budget you need an overall plan to be done in stages.or

You mentioned 10 yrs, this time will go quickly, so really live in this house without moving to0 many walls,doors, a lot of older houses had a flat roof extension. Retain the working character fire place which buyers love.. Or sell and move to a 4 bedroom house ( Bunk Beds are great in small spaces) cheers
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siriuskey
5 years ago
Excuse old furniture, but this is what your living family kitchen space could look like with glass doors both sides of the fireplace. You could even have ledge along the wall opposite the dining table that the kids could use the kitchen stools to sit up to doing home work and using laptops
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PRO
Paul Di Stefano Design
5 years ago
To quote siri above "I think you have to accept that it is what it is ,a lovely small house and not a 4 bedroom, with your small budget you need an overall plan to be done in stages"....couldn't agree more.......

Rather than a whole lot of fussy changes that essentially rearranges the sock drawer without adding significant value, you may find it more logical to do some minimised spend controlled updates that focuses & capitalises on the small scale charm, maximise the value, and then consider an alternative property that better suits your family needs......

There is always an alternative option

Best of luck

Cheers

PD
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dammit_au
Original Author
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
Appreciate the thoughts and this may be a solid option elsewhere in the country but in my circumstances I don't plan to be moving from this property any time before the kids are 18. It is located in Sydney's inner west, and in a specific high school catchment I plan to take advantage of when the kids are older. Stamp duty to buy the property was close to $100k and if moving out even in ten years to a larger property; that averages $10k a year spent on stamp duty.

I know 115m2 internal is tight, as is the fixed layout due to existing bedroom walls, ceiling heights, wet areas, and the like - but there has to be a way to make this work...

I have read that 4 bedroom apartments should be 102m2 or bigger.

I am willing to make compromises where possible but I really want to create that extra separate room "Multi-purpose room" which can double as a study/work area/kids play area/media room/ad-hoc sleeping accommodation".

Paul Di Stefano: I don't think these changes essentially equate to 'rearranging a sock drawer' - this is my PPOR so I am not too concerned what other buyers want or resale value if I plan to hold the property for 10-20 years +... (any trends we design for now may well be outdated by then anyway). Many buyers highly value indoor-outdoor integration. By moving the kitchen to centre, it opens up the rear and creates indoor living->outdoor living link. If I get IKEA flatpack kitchen and DIY as much as possible - have a friend reroute the water/drainage/+his licenced electrical friend...hopefully this work would cost sub-$20k.

Adding the sliding door to rear is $2.5k.

Ensuite, bathroom and laundry I believe I can fitout for $10-15k all up- let's say 15k (again, tiling, raise flooring, showers/fixtures/flat pack laudnry cabinetry install all done in-house without tradies).

The only thing I really need professionals for is to move the gas line in kitchen, BIR installs, stone benchtop, and maybe a few adhoc wall demo/construction/doorway moving - lets call that 10k.

All up ballpark that is 47.5k?

Sirius- If I go with your style plan then I lose the potential 4th bed space and have no where for relatives to stay, babysitter, nanny; etc :(

Maybe it is a possibility that the main living space be used for lounge room and kitchen, we can always put dining table in the Multi-purpose room, then when that room is needed for sleeping accommodation, the dining table be moved to the side and kids can eat dinner on island bench bar; lounge or outside table... ?

those doors to each side of the fireplace as you suggest - this space is very cramped outside (2.45m width) and potentially would be used to store trailer or garden shed, there is an old terrace built on zero-boundary there and they have a DA to go 2 storeys; which will shadow the whole area. This is why I planned to make the rear south corner a raised deck and try to channel house activity leading out the existing glass french door to that deck, or the rear sliding door. See photo-(my house is on the left, terrace zero boundary on right, and front on is a wooden dividing fence which on the opposite side is the driveway/1 car park and front street.
Susan Clark
5 years ago
Hi there. Just a comment re floating floors. We put them in many areas of our house and they look great. However they do scratch v easily - even the better brands. We have scratched ours in places just moving furniture back into the room after laying it, and my hubby is very careful about this stuff. With 4 children I would not use this. Keep the existing solid timber where you can and use large rugs - which can be incredibly cheap these days (see what Bunnings have on offer, for eg) - to unify mismatches. A wood look Lino or resin “planking” will last much better. Good luck. It’s a great project. Some terrific advixe given in these posts.
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siriuskey
5 years ago
Hi there, well that's good news if your neighbour can push to the boundary then why don't you look to do the same, money well spent. I will do a rough plan of this for you
dammit_au thanked siriuskey
dammit_au
Original Author
5 years ago
Susan Clark - thanks for the advice. I also really want to retain the flooring, even if it means spending a bit extra on repairs.

Siriuskey - I actually plan to use this space to park a mobile caravan/shipping container to airbnb if mortgage rates skyrocket and I can't afford repayments... temporary and just fits perfectly. Perfectly legal and bypasses DA requirements: http://www.vanhomes.com.au/products/

Otherwise yes future plan could include expanding to the boundary (with a DA process), or building a granny flat / Sydney's narrowest house (2.45m x 15m) - 2-3 stories is allowed...it is a separate title/parcel of land that (I own both my block and this long skinny block next to it).....

Otherwise knocking the property down (council may not ever allow this due to heritage conservation area/precinct) - the property is not individually heritage listed but the whole suburb has a blanket heritage restriction meaning they aren't keen to alter front facade/rooflines - despite the street being a mish-mash of various housing styles.

For the purpose of the immediate reno - no alterations to external roofline/wall is possible.... ($ constraints.....) - but maybe in the 10 year plan.
PRO
3DA Design Drafting and 3D Visuals
5 years ago
I assume this is near Leichhardt or Marrickville.
Good block size for its place. I suggest you retain the character.

Looking at the discussion, the priority is leaning towards maximising the space with 3/4 bed and living space at the rear.

I would now suggest sacrificing the wet area instead. The reason is to keep main living dining block as streamline look as possible. No ins and outs cabinetry eating into the space.

See my sketch and I hope it makes sense.

I sneak in the kitchen cabinety into wet area so the whole cabinets will sit flush with existing walls.

Island is now a centrepiece and hub of the whole lot.
Its how you put generous aisle width that will be the key of making this work.

Add ceiling hung shelvings to steal storage space.
You can always add this on when you have the $$

I like Siri idea of the double door to the side. It steals visual and breathing space. It will look good.

Wet area is just a puzzle to solve. You got 1.5m width and it should work
PRO
3DA Design Drafting and 3D Visuals
5 years ago
See attachment
siriuskey
5 years ago
Without having access to all your ideas for your place I have just done a rough idea of what you could do, keeping the kitchen institu, and reducing the house back to one bathroom but adding a second toilet, I grew up in a household of six kids 3 of each and 2 x parents and we managed with 1 bathroom with shower over bath and a separate WC.

You forgot to mentioned the cost of the deck, always be aware of the unknown.

It is sounding like this house has pushed you like a lot of others in Sydney. and puts lot of pressure on family relationships, don't do what you can't already afford, just enjoy the house and see what happens
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dammit_au
Original Author
5 years ago
interesting mock-up ! thanks for sharing. I like the roof glass for natural light - had not thought of that.

RE deck costings - the deck and artificial grass on the remaining can be done in a year or two :) Deck can be built by family so would pay materials only.... astro-turf would probably get the professionals in (possibly after grading/doing the earth moving prep by self).